Jimmie Foxx Rookie?

[kevinlenane]

Just curious what most of you would consider a Jimmie Foxx rookie card. You've got the 26-29 exhibit, the 1927 W560 playing card, the 1928 R315 and the 1929 Kashin (actual dates could be off a year on the "R"a and then the 1930 tiny Baguer. Obviously 1933 offers a variety of great choices (and 32 US Caramel) but I'm leaning on the exhibit given the great image. Any thoughts - I'm sure I'm missing something huge...

[h2oya311]

I think most would vote for the 1926-29 Exhibits. A select few might opt for the 1927 W560 simply because they don't like postcard sized cards.

My vote would be for the 1926-29 Exhibits. Pricing has risen considerably over the past 5+ years.

[brianp-beme]

Here is what it shows on the Old Cardboard site in their Hall of Fame rookie card database:

http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/rook...ail.asp?id=120

Brian

[kevinlenane]

Any idea why they consider the p/c back the rookie vs the blank back?

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Any idea why they consider the p/c back the rookie vs the blank back?

no difference, IMO.

[darwinbulldog]

I would also say the '26-'29 Exhibit card.

[C-mack]

I'm vote r315 but only cause I own one lol

[jbsports33]

Exhibit!

Thanks Jimmy

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

Any idea why they consider the p/c back the rookie vs the blank back?

The backs provide key printing clues. The initial runs of the issue were made with blank backs or backs that had a postcard design with the words “THIS SIDE FOR CORRESPONDENCE” printed on them. Later runs use the phrase “NOT TO BE USED IN EXHIBIT MACHINES”, and still-later print runs add “MADE IN USA” to the card backs. These back characteristics match my experience in collecting the set. In every case where I have run across a card that “should” be an early short-print , the card has been either blank-backed or “correspondence” backed. The backs are critical to analyzing whether a card may be characterized as a rookie. If you find one that is blank-backed it could be a 1925 printing. A 'correspondence' back is probably a 1926 card or perhaps a 1927.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Adam:

Could a blank back also have been first issued in 1928 or 1929? Same question for the "Correspondence" back.

Thanks,

Phil

[Exhibitman]

I said that a blank back could be a 1925 printing. It also could have been issued at any time later, perhaps by accident. With the # of Topps and Bowman and Leaf unintended blank backs I have seen, it is certainly possible that the company accidentally issued a blank back. The Gehrig portrait card, which has been seen in blank back and touted (incorrectly) as a RC, is a later issue because the pose itself is a later one. My point is better said in the negative than the positive: if you are looking at certain backs (like the "not for use" back especially with the USA legend), you are not looking at an early print run. Similarly, if you have a later pose it is not an early card regardless of the back.

As an aside, there are also instances of the premium advertising back from the 4 on 1 cards issued out of date and of the first 4 on 1 cards issued with the incorrect backs. I suspect they just ran with whatever stock they had on the shelf if they ran low. No one thought that a bunch of card-nerds would be dissecting this 100 years later.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Good info, thanks, Adam.

One more question, if you have a specific photo that was used to make one of the cards in this set and the photo can be dated to a specific season based on uniform style, is it most likely that the exhibit card was produced that same year as the photo was taken or the following year? I guess the real question here is, do we know at what point of the year that new exhibit cards were traditionally released preseason, during the season or postseason?

[Exhibitman]

Not really. What the photo would do is pin down the earliest possible date. Like the Jim Thorpe in Native American headdress. A copy of the photo that was used to make that card was discovered with the original news caption intact and therefore dated the card to no earlier than the date of the photo.

As for work flow, my research indicates that the company released cards continually; they advertised new issues released on average every 60 days. They also undoubtedly replaced cards on sheets over the course of an issue. This is best determined from the 1920s boxing sets because they have bio/stats and copyright dates on the backs, and some of them actually have stats that post-date the copyright dates (e.g., a 1928 card with 1929 bouts reported). There are also odd set counts relative to sheet size, which means there were replacements.

I don't think we are ever going to get clarity on this unless there is a lucky find of company archival material or uncut sheets. That is how I proved that the Salutations were issued long after the supposed 1947 cut-off: I had a Ted Williams on the same sheet as a Rocky Colavito Detroit card (he was traded to Detroit after the 1959 season).

[bcbgcbrcb]

Thanks for the additional info, Adam.

So, in the final synopsis here, the Foxx postcard-back exhibit COULD have been first issued in 1928 as the uniform style pictured in the photo used dates it to that season, along with the matching uniform style of the photo used for the Lefty Grove postcard-back exhibit. We know that it was NOT issued in 1925-27 and, of course, COULD have also been first produced anytime after, from 1929-31.

Since all of the other options for the Foxx rookie card were issued in 1929 or later, and in the absence of uncut sheets or further company documentation from the Exhibit Supply Co., the earliest possible card of Foxx would be the postcard-back exhibit. Should proof ever turn up that the Foxx postcard-back card was not produced until 1929 or later, then Foxx will have five or six rookie card options, including that one, the Kashin (R316), Leader Novelty, W560 (I don't believe that this card issue could have been laid out, printed and also released during the last two weeks of 1928), 1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits & 1929-30 R315.

[h2oya311]

interesting Phil (and Adam).

I know the TPGs show the W560 as being issued in 1927 and we have seen evidence on this website that the date of issue for that set is more likely from 1928-29, but how did you determine that the W560 set is definitively a 1929 issue?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Thanks for the additional info, Adam.

So, in the final synopsis here, the Foxx postcard-back exhibit COULD have been first issued in 1928 as the uniform style pictured in the photo used dates it to that season, along with the matching uniform style of the photo used for the Lefty Grove postcard-back exhibit. We know that it was NOT issued in 1925-27 and, of course, COULD have also been first produced anytime after, from 1929-31.

Since all of the other options for the Foxx rookie card were issued in 1929 or later, and in the absence of uncut sheets or further company documentation from the Exhibit Supply Co., the earliest possible card of Foxx would be the earliest version of the postcard-back exhibit series, the blank-back version, of which one has been sitting on e-bay for a long time at a very steep price. I guess it's also possible that a "correspondence" back could have been produced in 1928 as well. Possibly other versions of the back too, but more unlikely.

Should proof ever turn up that the Foxx postcard-back card was not produced until 1929 or later, then Foxx will have five or six rookie card options, including that one, the Kashin (R316), Leader Novelty, W560 (I don't believe that this card issue could have been laid out, printed and also released during the last two weeks of 1928), 1929-30 4-on-1 Exhibits & 1929-30 R315.

What I would change there is the reference to the blank-backed Foxx as the first one. If the card is later than 1926, then any blank back is almost certainly likely a misprint and does not carry any specific date relationship.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Hey Derek:

As per Brian’s recent thread on the dating of the W560 set, one of the players on the uncut sheets is presented with a team that he was traded to on 12/13/28. In order for the set to have been issued in 1928, the maker would have had to do the complete layout, print all of the cards and then distribute/release them within about a two week period before the end of 1928.

Probably a better chance of winning the mega millions, don’t you think?

[brianp-beme]

Here is that thread Phil is referencing discussing W560 issue dating:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=w560

Brian

[h2oya311]

thanks y'all!

[bcbgcbrcb]

Adam:

Sorry, one more related question. Are there any backs that we know could not have been issued before 1930 such as "made in U.S.A." or is anything possible?

[Exhibitman]

Highly unlikely that the sans serif typeface not to be used with USA back was issued before 1929. That's about it.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Ok, thanks again, Adam.

[Leon]

Good info and thread...

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Here is that thread Phil is referencing discussing W560 issue dating:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...highlight=w560

Brian