Valuing Authentic Cards vs. PSA/SGC Poor 10/1

[SetBuilder]

Why do some collectors consider cards graded authentic to be below a "1" or "Poor" grade? I've heard the term "PSA 0/SGC 0" used by some sellers on eBay and on the forum before. I find this odd, because an authentic label does not convey any grading at all.

The authentic label is meant to infer the absense of a numerical grade. It is the TPG's way of saying "we deem this card to have a defect, but we will not issue an opinion on the grade." In this way, the TPG's defer opinion on a 1-10 scale and instead evaulate the authenticity only with no numerical grade implied.

I've noticed that some authentic cards can sell at or below the price of a poor condition card. In some cases, collectors would rather avoid a trimmed authentic with no creases or rounded corners, and choose a Poor/Good card instead with noticable defects to avoid the stigma of the authentic.

Is this an example of collectors being irrational?

[ullmandds]

authentic graded cards usually imply alterations were done...ie trimming, color added, etc...hence the lower value/price.

[terjung]

To me, it really depends on why the card was deemed authentic. Some get the label because they were trimmed to look more minty. Others get the label because of a piece of tape on the back. Others get it because too much of the card is missing.

To me, I look at a card differently if it was altered with apparent malicious intent (in order to attempt to increase its value) than I do if it is deemed authentic due to some other technical reason - like the piece of tape for example. I can see the value being above, below, or equal to a "1" grade depending on why it is "A" and depending on its appearance.

I wouldn't equate an "A" to a "0".

[drc]

Most cards graded by PSA and SGC as Authentic are altered. That's why they got that designation.

I've seen many good looking Auth cards sell for well above their grade value.

There are instances where unaltered cards get the AUTH grade, such as autographed cards, where the seller asked only for the AUTH grade and rare/oddball/esoteric/unusual cards where the graders don't have enough experience/knowledge of the issue to grade.

[Tyler]

I have never let the "A" designation bother me. It has allowed me to purchase original vintage cards, with wonderful eye appeal, at a tremendously discounted price.
I have definitely paid a premium over a beater "1" or "2". But I personally would rather have these. I understand both sides... to each his own.

[steve B]

That's one of the reasons I wish they'd put the reason on the flip. Many that get the A grade are trimmed or altered, but some are just cards that are undersize or have unusual cuts. When I get those back they have the reason on the grading slip, and online it shows the rejection code so why not put it on the flip? there's plenty of room for a rejection code.

I understand why they won't grade them. Too many people would see an undersize card and instantly think trimmed. So it's not worth putting it out there with a grade. But Something like A (MS) for a factory cut but undersize card shouldn't be all that hard.

Going just by looks, many of the A cards look great. And if that's what someone collects that's not so bad. I have a couple that I won't bother to upgrade that were rejected as miscut or too small. And another that's trimmed that's a really great looking card. It's hard to justify buying a less attractive card that's even VG.

Steve B

[g_vezina_c55]

Like i said in the past i prefer a creased graded 1 card over a altered card ...

Same for Car collecting.. i prefer a survivor car with some paint defect, scratch etc over a full 100% restored trailer queen car....

Same things in comic book collecting.... In comic book when a book is altered or restored the color of the label change blue to purple... and the detail of the restoration is on the label and the comic have a numerical restored grade.... and in this case too i prefer a 100% original item with defaut over a restored item.

For me AUTH is under psa 1 or sgc 10.
My humble opinion.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Depends on the card. My pride and joy (pictured below - because I show it off whenever I get a chance) was graded authentic because it was a handcut stripcard and doesn't have enough of the borders.

[SetBuilder]

In the current Goodwin auction there is a T206 card labeled Authentic that looks VG-EX or better. Excellent visual appeal. I also saw an example above of a Lajoie portrait that looks EX+.

So what is the lesser evil, a little trim job or recoloring, or a beater with a crease running down the middle, or rounded corners (which I always avoid whenever possible)? In this scenario, it doesn't make any sense if you weigh the pro's and con's of the card objectively, that the beater carries a higher demand over a barely noticable altered card.

Just doesn't make any sense to a cardboard collector to pick the beater.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

In the current Goodwin auction there is a T206 card labeled Authentic that looks VG-EX or better. Excellent visual appeal. I also saw an example above of a Lajoie portrait that looks EX+.

So what is the lesser evil, a little trim job or recoloring, or a beater with a crease running down the middle, or rounded corners (which I always avoid whenever possible)? In this scenario, it doesn't make any sense if you weigh the pro's and con's of the card objectively, that the beater carries a higher demand over a barely noticable altered card.

Just doesn't make any sense to a cardboard collector to pick the beater.

Personally I would take the authentic card, most of the time if it looked better. But then again I am building a set for fun, not for financial gain.

[ullmandds]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder...personally...I can't stand altered cards and don't want them in my collection!

[GasHouseGang]

I couldn't pass up this Authentic card. It's one I always liked and I couldn't afford one that was equivalent from an eye appeal viewpoint.

[Ease]

David, that is a sharp Anson, a real beauty, altered or not. I seek out slabbed altered cards, no better way to get a gem at a lower price point.

[HRBAKER]

There is no right or wrong answer here. Arguments for both. Both have value and a market for resale. It's the altered cards with the 6, 7 and 8's on them that I worry about.

[GasHouseGang]

Thanks Eric, I agree. It's the only way to afford some of the cards I want for my collection.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

There is no right or wrong answer here. Arguments for both. Both have value and a market for resale. It's the altered cards with the 6, 7 and 8's on them that I worry about.

+1.
I have some rare cards in my collection which are graded authentic, I have purchased them waiting for a graded card to surface and sometimes they just never do. They are more than just "placeholders" to me.

[ethicsprof]

I'm with Jeff and Bob. I have a few cards in my collection that are authentic
and will never part with them. They're favs!
I should also note that my collection involving cards with respected provenance has a few authentics. Nagy's cards, in particular, are graded authentic at times,
such as e90-1s. I've gladly had them framed for display.
all the best,
barry

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

In the current Goodwin auction there is a T206 card labeled Authentic that looks VG-EX or better. Excellent visual appeal. I also saw an example above of a Lajoie portrait that looks EX+.

So what is the lesser evil, a little trim job or recoloring, or a beater with a crease running down the middle, or rounded corners (which I always avoid whenever possible)? In this scenario, it doesn't make any sense if you weigh the pro's and con's of the card objectively, that the beater carries a higher demand over a barely noticable altered card.

Just doesn't make any sense to a cardboard collector to pick the beater.

This is one of those situations where it's a matter of preference. I have nothing against the way anyone collects- we have collectors who only want beaters/poors all the way up to collectors who only want as close to mint as possible- and everything in between.

I personally avoid anything with an "A" only because I like mine looking their age, as well as presentable. I don't mind a little rounding on the corners, or a surface wrinkle that doesn't really show too much. But I don't want a card that's been trimmed to look brand new, that's just me. I don't want a card that someone touched up the color on, for any reason.

I've had to pass on a couple of killer combinations because they were trimmed. I hated to pass but trimming bugs me about as much as paper loss on the back (or front) of a card. Here's a couple of PSA 1 poors that I picked up recently:

Not bad for "1's"

Sincerely, Clayton

[deadballfreaK]

Yep. Two trains of thought. Personally I'll take a nice crease free, obviously trimmed card any day over a beater. Once bought a huge lot of E90-1s. Someone didn't like the big borders. Beautiful cards, but way short. I just enjoy 'em. Don't care about grading or profit.

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I can't stand altered cards and don't want them in my collection!

I agree. I'll take a beater PSA 1/SGC 10 over a "sharp" altered card every day of the week.

[ullmandds]

we seem to be in the minority!!!!! Don't get me wrong...I realise some cards only come in A grades...and that is fine...but as Chris stated I'd much rather have a decent p-f-g card as compared to a minty looking trimmed one!!!!

[DICKTOWLE]

[QUOTE=steve B;1104831]That's one of the reasons I wish they'd put the reason on the flip. Many that get the A grade are trimmed or altered, but some are just cards that are undersize or have unusual cuts. When I get those back they have the reason on the grading slip, and online it shows the rejection code so why not put it on the flip? there's plenty of room for a rejection code.

I understand why they won't grade them. Too many people would see an undersize card and instantly think trimmed. So it's not worth putting it out there with a grade. But Something like A (MS) for a factory cut but undersize card shouldn't be all that hard.

Going just by looks, many of the A cards look great. And if that's what someone collects that's not so bad. I have a couple that I won't bother to upgrade that were rejected as miscut or too small. And another that's trimmed that's a really great looking card. It's hard to justify buying a less attractive card that's even VG.

I agree with Steve, when you look at Goodwin's auction, there is a large group of Kottons- the cobb blank back is a monster graded A because it would have been cut as a test card?- the others graded A- non blank backs appear to have different cuts on the card, this appears these were cut this way- there is a group of monsters cards in the group- someone will be happy to own these A or not

[Fred]

I always take the opportunity to give my 2 cents on the topic of AUTH vs numerically graded cards.

I would gladly take an AUTH graded card over a numerically graded "1" or "2" card if it presents nicely and I can get a deep discount on it.

Now my rant and rave over TPGs and hand cut cards. I don't understand how TPGs can grade a hand cut card with anything but an AUTH grade. Also, how can a TPG provide a numerical grade to a card that had a coupon cut off? For example, Zeenuts. If the tab is missing then it was cut off, it is NOT a complete card that was mass distributed, it was ALTERED. Why can't the TPGs understand this.

[Exhibitman]

I view the "A" and the "1" about the same. I usually crack out any card I get in an "A" or "1" holder and store it raw instead. Whether one is worth more depends on the card. I've seen some fugly "1s", just beat all to hell, and some beautiful "A" cards with a corner gone or a punch hole.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

[QUOTE=Fred;1105681] I don't understand how TPGs can grade a hand cut card with anything but an AUTH grade. QUOTE]

Me either.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Like i said in the past i prefer a creased graded 1 card over a altered card ...

Same for Car collecting.. i prefer a survivor car with some paint defect, scratch etc over a full 100% restored trailer queen car....

Same things in comic book collecting.... In comic book when a book is altered or restored the color of the label change blue to purple... and the detail of the restoration is on the label and the comic have a numerical restored grade.... and in this case too i prefer a 100% original item with defaut over a restored item.

For me AUTH is under psa 1 or sgc 10.
My humble opinion.

I get ya Nelson... However, I'm Certain that "The Gretzky Wagner" iS Probably the ExceptionN to Your "Authentic" Rule...

[OldEnglishD]

Question:

If I submit a card to say, SGC, and it turns out it is altered, does it get slabbed into an 'Authentic' holder, or do I have to state 'Authentic' as an acceptable grade with the submission?

My understanding is that if you submit for a grade, and it turns out the card it trimmed, colored, etc... they do NOT slab the card.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave

[packs]

I think you have to explicitly mark off a section on the form that says you want the card slabbed authentic if it cannot receive a number grade. Otherwise they will not slab it.

[Bigb13]

image.jpg

I've never seen an altered qualifier on a card graded authentic by SGC, is that something new? In that same vein, on newly slabbed SGC cards (since the new flip let's say) can one now assume that a card grade authentic, with no altered qualifier, is indeed not altered? It's weird that they would specifically mention it on some flips and not on others when assigning the grade authentic.

[packs]

Don't know about altered but they recently started adding rebacked to Authentic flips.

[bobbyw8469]

[GehrigFan]

Someone posted a T200, and that's the one set that baffles me. I always see AUTH graded SGC and PSA cards from this set that are not trimmed, not recolored, not altered. Why do they give that designation to so many of that set?

[swarmee]

I believe that Authentic cards are actually worth 0.5 for registry set values. So it helps you complete a set, as well as gives you a tiny bump for your GPA.

[Bigb13]

Somebody tired to repair a slight crease on the back of the card besides that it is a beautiful Jackson. Rob

[bobbyw8469]

I find this odd, because an authentic label does not convey any grading at all.
]

My scan of the Gretzky above shows otherwise.