T207....indeed a strange set....let' talk about it ?

[tedzan]

I started my T207 set in the late 1980's and completed it by the mid-1990's. In the late 1990's I sold it to one of our best liked Net54 guys.
This set has always perplexed me, in that none of BB "biggies" of that era (except Johnson & Speaker) were featured in it. But, there was a
lot of new name players that were not in the T206 or T205 sets. Guys like Lowdermilk and "Red" Hoff. For reasons like these, I have always
thought that this set was not printed by American Litho. In fact there is another 1912 set that closely resembles (front & back) the T207 set,
and that is the Imperial Tobacco (C46) set issued in Canada. I'd say that these two sets were produced by the same (unknown) printing firm.

My favorite card in this set is Chester "Red" Hoff. A southpaw pitcher, Chet started with the Highlanders in 1911....and the very first batter he
faced was Ty Cobb....Chet struck out Cobb on 3 pitches. When I sold my set, I kept Hoff, since he was still living at the grand old age of 107.

So, let's hear of your experiences collecting T207's....and, by all means show us some of your cards ?







TED Z

[jcmtiger]

I don't want to plug up the board, here are my Tigers. I have all the Detroit Players, here are a few. i do like those boxes.

Joe

[Abravefan11]

I know little about this set but here's my favorite T207 that I own.



At the time that Hank was included in this set, like many others, he wasn't a big name in the professional game. The inclusion and exclusion of many players in this set is perplexing. Ted I think you may be onto something with your theory that this set was produced by someone other than ALC.

[frohme]

I was about to post on T207 for a couple of reasons, both with news, and further questions.

First off, though, the quest is finally at an end - T207 is complete.

With help, generosity, and support from so many others (as I've said several times before) and collaboration with other board member(s) who are oh sooooo close as well, the set is finally complete. Lots of room for improvement, and the Lewis no emblem is still not included, but those of you that have one - congrats!

Donnelly just arrived from the REA lot - many, many thanks Ron.



Some credits:

Rob D - I haven't forgotten what I owe you for your generosity.
Robert A, Bill T, Bob, et. al - thanks for the continued encouragement.
Ron R - Thanks for the help on the final push and all the discussion in between.
Tim N and Bob M - thanks for the VCBC articles which helped show just how dark and torturous a path it is/was.

As for the process - my first card was Miller (Pitt) from a David Festberg auction somewhere around 1991. I only got the bug for the set in 2006 after finding this site and reading up on the challenge. Being a Pirates collector, seeing a Donlin on eBay, and reading tbob's comments about it being one of the hardest cards - in his opinion - lit the fuse. The rest is, well, history.

If there's anything I'd say looking back, it would be that there have been a lot more quality cards come out over the last 18 months than in the prior 3 years. Still, finding any card in EX or better in this set can be a real bear. Some are still harder (much) than others.

--
Mike

[ethicsprof]

congrats,Mike!!
a great conquest.

Ted, i have 2 recruit little cigar packs in order to represent the 2 different factories. i only have one card, the Wolverton, placed between the 2 packs,
framed.

They've never drawn me like the 206s in part because they lack the lithographic aesthetics of the 206s. They do seem to exhibit an oddity akin to the C46s as you suggest. Worth investigating further methinks.

great work.

best,
barry

[Kawika]

Glory Hallelujah! That ImageEvent layout of T207s would make a grown man weep.
Well done, Mike!


My grandfather was Edward McDonald although at the time of this card he hadn't yet set foot in America, but was rather in the Irish Guard chasing the Mad Mullah across Palestine. He never mentioned any baseball playing.

[teetwoohsix]

Just wanted to say congrats Mike !!!

Sincerely,Clayton

[T205]

Mike,

Impressive! Congrats! I am having a hard time trying to put one team together (Boston Nationals) much less trying to take on the whole set. How hard was it to find the Lowdermilk?

[marcdelpercio]

Ted,
That's a very interesting observation about the similarities with the C46 set. There are some definite parallels. Obviously the color scheme is quite similar and not used by any other tobacco sets of the era. C46 is a minor league set that features many players with major league experience while the T207's are a major league set featuring many players that barely if ever made it out of the minors. The quirky write-ups on the backs also seem as if they could have been done by the same writer(s) with many similarities in phrasing.

There was a discussion recently about the lack of evidence that the C46's were actually released by Imperial Tobacco so that also adds to the mysteries. I have many examples of other Imperial Tobacco hockey, lacrosse, and non-sports cards released during these years and none share major similarities in print design with the C46's.

Congrats on completing your set Mike! The T207's are my all-time favorite set. I have been working on this set for 10 years (and have gotten several from you during that time ) and I still need about 50 more cards. So I definitely can appreciate your difficult achievement.

[tbob]

Mike- Thanks for the kind words and congratulations are definitely in order for your completing this set. I have always felt that this set is a real challenge. If you have enough money you can complete other sets like the T205 and T206 but completing the T207 set is a journey. I know some collectors don't like the dark brooding backgrounds and colors and others don't like it because Matty, Cobb, Wagner and others don't make an appearance, but I don't think there is a set around that is more attractive when you can find cards in the set in really nice shape. Besides, where else are you going to find some of the obscure players in the set? The Tinker and Donlan cards are beautiful and so many of the tough back cards feature striking, if almost surreal, pictures of the players.
The set is completeable but it is a journey. The 205s and 206s were a snap compared to this one. There are hidden minefields of scarcity even among some of the Recruit (common) players (and I won't divulge those now for those of you still working on the set who need them). Tim and I thoroughly enjoyed writing the articles and Tim's labor of love in compiling the statistics should prove invaluable to anyone collecting the set.
For those of you who have compiled a team set (like the Detroit group shown above), I can't see how you can stop your collecting there. The set is one of the few that is mainstream, attractive and requires interaction with other collectors to finish. And that's a good thing

[frohme]

Thank you again to all that responded (and have helped).

David, Clayton - appreciate the kind words
Marc - best of luck on your continued journey - I'll be happy to continue to help out going forward - it is certainly not a sprint!

T205 - good luck! You picked the hardest team in the entire set. Boston Natl and Chicago Amer are at the top of the difficulty list, by good bit. Lowdermilk was definitely not the hardest - even some of the Recruit class cards are on par with his.

Using Tim Newcomb's rating (see the VCBC articles) averaged by team... my experience lines up closely with his survey data.

Team	League	# Cards	Difficulty
Boston
	Amer	18	30.94
	Nat	14	23.36
Brooklyn
	Nat	14	30.86
Chicago
	Amer	20	23.45
	Nat	10	36.40
Cinn
	Nat	10	31.40
Cleveland
	Amer	18	34.11
Detroit
	Amer	11	38.55
New York
	Amer	10	40.00
	Nat	13	50.31
Phila
	Amer	11	39.18
	Nat	9	39.11
Pittsburg
	Nat	15	31.53
St Louis
	Amer	10	30.40
	Nat	14	38.21
Washington
	Amer	9	48.00

[frohme]

Bob,

Thank you (and Tim) for the articles - no telling how many times I've read them now. Our posts crossed in time or I'd have added this.

I think you really nailed it for some key reasons -

• "It is a challenge". I'd call it a labor of love - you have to be in it for the long haul.
• "I don't think there is a set around that is more attractive when you can find cards in the set in really nice shape". Could not agree more!
• "It is completable, but a journey." Yes! 4 years for me, mostly 1 card at a time but for a couple of group purchases mostly early on. Scott B, Dan K, Paul S, Scott G.
• "... requires interaction with other collectors to finish. And that's a good thing. " Absolutely!
• etc...

OK, maybe I'm biased .
--
Mike

[sox1903wschamp]

Congrats Mike for completing the set and knocking down that last king pin in Donnelly. It is funny you mention David Festberg for your first card purchase as I also purchased my first T-207 Red Sox from him sometime in the mid 90's.

I do love this set and read the VCBC Part 1 and 2 articles all the time and although I concentrate on completing pre war subsets of Boston American cards, I have thought quite a bit about trying to complete this set. If I do a complete pre war set this would be the one, maybe soon . Nice job and congrats again Mike.

[Leon]

First of all a big Congrats to Mike F....completion is a great feeling.

And the T207 set has one of the rarest backs of any generally produced set. It still has Johnson, Speaker and some others....plus the hidden rarities....and, as mentioned, one of my collecting niches ...

[uffda51]

Congrats, Mike. I completed the basic set in 2005 and it's also at imageevent. It's the first time I've ever put together a set that has all graded cards so I've displayed it that way.

http://imageevent.com/uffda51/t207heaven



Loudermilk was my first card. Hoff is a favorite as well.

[Bosox Blair]

My favorite T207 from my collection (and at or near the top of fave Speaker cards):

[Vintagecatcher]

It took quite a few years before I finally grabbed my Johnny Kling T207 with a BIN on eBay earlier this year. For whatever reason, it not only is a tough card to find, but it is especially difficult to find in nice condition.

Patrick

[kmac32]

have a complete set of T207 Cubs minus Saier and Miller. Awesome cards and display very nicely. Classic set in my opinion.

Kmac

[Bridwell]

I've fallen in love with this set, also. Warts and all. Some of the poses are truly artistic. Some not so much.

I've been working on a set for a year and a half. Kudos to Bob and Mike for completing it. That's incredible! I've found that about half the set is pretty easy and the other half is pretty darn tough. Some cards only appear for sale maybe once in a year.

It's a strange set in that the following star players are not included:

Cobb
Wagner
Evers
Eddie Collins
Crawford
Joe Jackson
Grover Alexander
Plank
Baker
M. Brown
Walsh

There are 13 HOFers in the set, but some of those were early in their careers: Carey, Wheat, McKechnie, Hooper. It almost feels like this set was supposed to be the first part of a bigger set, a set that might have been planned to have as many players as T206. But, obviously, that didn't happen.

Ron

[Bridwell]

They look even more dark and mysterious in the SGC holders...

[Steve D]

T207 has long been one of my favorite sets. I've always had an attraction to the "Old West", and the T207s just look like they came out of the Old West, with the dark brown backgrounds and gray borders.

Here are scans of my cards from the set:








Steve

[Matt]

Mike - congrats! I know you were after that Donnelly for a VERY long time. What's next?

[Bridwell]

Another mystery of the T207 set is the Anonymous Backs. There are 2 different versions, with different factory numbers, but no brand listed. What cigarette brand would go to the trouble to list factory numbers but not identify themselves?

Ron R

[frohme]

Agreed on the "anonymous" backs, Ron

Beyond that, there are all sorts of card/printing mysteries:

• Why do some of the cards have silver/grey borders and others tan ... what are the distributions?
• Why are some (small?) number of cards printed on the back with brown ink rather than black ... again, what are the distributions?
• Why do some of the cards look really dull/drab (as if they are washed out) yet they are not obviously worn, bleached (maybe U/V?)
• What was the printing process really like, and how does it compare to the T206 (or C46) process?
• How common are the print freaks/errors?
• Just how many "swapped/wrong backs" are there?
• How many different Anon-3 Recruits are there, really?
• Why are some of the Recruit cards so difficult to find in any grade at/above VG/EX?

--
Mike

[marcdelpercio]

I have always found the theory very interesting that the Anonymous Factory 3 cards were a Coupon release. This would seem reasonable as it was a Louisiana factory. Perhaps the breakup of the ATC caused some legal situation which prevented the Coupon brand name on the back of some of these cards. This could also be a factor in the discussion of whether Coupon Type 1's should be considered as a T206 brand while the Type 2's and 3's (all three Louisiana Factory 3 releases...same as T207 Anonymous) released a few years later are clearly separate issues with unquestionably distinct designs.

[caramelcard]

Marc,

Good points.

Red Cross could've been a possibility for the anonymous backs.

Only a few exist. Few enough to where they could've been part of a test sheet. I can't think of another fairly large issue where one back is so amazingly scarce. Not sure why they would've have followed through with more.

Rob

[Bridwell]

T207's seem to have a laminate 'glaze' over the front of the card. It doesn't hold up very well, being prone to crazing and cracking. Handling T206's, it seems like T206's have more 'give' to them. A T207 is more likely to wrinkle, and the corners/edges more likely to chip, IMO. Thus EX or better examples are scarce.

Marc, the comparison to T213-2 is interesting because they seem to have the same type of 'glaze' on the fronts.

T207's are also somewhat of a 'ugly stepchild' to T206's. After millions of colorful T206's and E cards were in the hands of the public, then these darker T207's were released. I suspect they were not well received at the time. I've grown to love them, though.

Ron R

[William Todd]

Mike, Congratulations on completing the T207 set. I know that you really were committed to the task. I too enjoyed Tim and Bob's aritcle in VCBC and it helped me to complete the set, except for Lewis " No Emblem". I even got crazy and tried to complete the Broadleaf class in all three or four possible backs. Try the Recruit class cards in Factory 240 PA, Factory 606 MD, and then an Anonymous 3 for the rarer Recruits, and then the Napoleons. The set has as many twists, not quite, as T206. Certainly the rarity of some is extreme beyond belief. I recently had a friend of a client come to me with 275 T206's that her father had collected and was able to view them and handle them and it was quite an experience. If only they were T207's in original form!

[William Todd]

Mike, I just went through your whole set, it is quite an achievement. Thats a beautiful Lefty George and Barney Pelty, and your Donnelly is spectacular (pardon the Seinfeld reference).

[tedzan]

Great going Mike on completing this very tough set. Now, don't do what I did, by selling it. Enjoy it, as I am sure you are.

There are only a few regrets I have in this hobby, and selling my T207 set is one. After all, it took me longer to complete
it than my first T206 set.


Regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Hey guys, all these T207 cards on display, now this set is getting some respect here.

Keep showing them and telling us of your T207 stories.


From a US Air Force veteran, I wish you all a solemn Memorial Day.

TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

I can't think of another fairly large issue where one back is so amazingly scarce.
Rob

I don't know what "large" is considered but I can probably think of a at least one and maybe more, E222- AWA back .....

[frohme]

Thanks, Bill - you know your set was/is an inspiration. I've toyed with the idea - like you did - of a master set. I think that's one of the lines in the sand beyond which one is certifiable. I'll stick to my anonymous recruits - below.

Ted - many thanks as well - I plan to enjoy it as long as possible, and fill out the rough edges as wherever it makes sense. In keeping with your request, how about some Recruit-class anonymous-backed cards.

Thanks to board members for quite a few of these over the last 4 years.







Anyone have a Speaker they'd like to part with?

If you have images of anon-3 backs (Recruit) - show 'em.

[Sixtofan]

This has been a tough one to work on though! I only need 7 more, three of which are currently available in auctions so hopefully I can knock them off the list. In some ways this has been the most fun of any set I have collected - I get genuinely excited when I can cross one off my list. Also, there seems to be good camaraderie amongst the folks working on this set. It truly brings back some of the joy of collecting.

[William Todd]

Mike, Those Anon 3's are gorgeous and rare. That grouping really illustrates some of the tougher Recruit T207's.

[49leaf]

Mike congrats on finishing the t207 set. I know that you really worked hard to finish it. If anyone has any questions on this set please feel free to ask. Patrick McHugh

[tbob]

Maybe the T207's inclusions and exclusions were based solely on economics. Perhaps it was a lot easier to sign up Lowdermilk and Lewis for a pittance than Cobb and Lajoie for big money.
I also think the set was put together in a haphazard fashion and the final series was to include some of the stars but who knows? Perhaps if the total set had come to fruition, we'd be showing PSA 5 Jacksons with a Cycle back or VGEX Lajoies with an Anonymous back and a G/VG Alexander with a Broadleaf back. The mysteries of this set run deep.

[Bridwell]

After the anti-trust breakup of ATC in 1911, the number of tobacco baseball sets declined. The T207 set was 'caught in the middle' with a set in development. The timing of releasing this set in early 1912 probably had something to do with all the mysteries.

ATC was probably restructuring and we all know how chaotic that can be.

Ron R

[tedzan]

I have a simple answer to why there are so many players missing in this set that were in the T206 and T205 sets.
Recall my comments from my initial post in this thread......

"I have always thought that this set was not printed by American Lithographic. In fact there is another 1912 set
that closely resembles (front & back) the T207 set, and that is the Imperial Tobacco (C46) set issued in Canada.
I'd say that these two sets were produced by the same (unknown) printing firm."

This would explain the missing stars and other guys in the T207 set, which were in the 2 preceding T-sets. Since,
the new printers most likely did not have the Rights to portray these players.

If my theory is correct, I sure wish we could discover who printed the T207 cards ?


TED Z

[Bridwell]

Hi Ted,

About 85 of the 200 players in T207 were also in T206. That is a low percentage for only about 3 years later. Of the 85 T206 players, I don't believe any of the same poses or artwork were used for the T207's. It makes sense to think that a different printer/designer was used.

I don't think ATC or the other printer could have blocked the approval of T206 players to be in the set. Otherwise, those 85 would not be in T207, which is still a large number of players. It's possible a dispute occurred and the T207 set was halted before another series could be printed.

Ron

[marcdelpercio]

Do we know for certain which cigarette brands remained with which companies after the ATC break-up? My theory is that the T207's are a half-aborted kind of set that was cobbled together in the midst of a chaotic time for the ATC and the subsequent post-breakup separate companies. I'm sure there were many legal ramifications of what advertising backs were allowed to be displayed which may explain the relatively few different backs as compared to the T205 and T206 sets. Perhaps Broadleaf, Cycle, Recruit, and Napoleon remained with one manufacturer while the Anonymous cards (Coupon and another brand distributing from Factory 25?) and possibly Red Cross were assigned to a different company, thus the extreme scarcity of Red Cross and anomaly of lack of advertising on the Anons.

On Ted's theory, I know from reading the original anti-trust lawsuit that ATC was a large stockholder in Imperial Tobacco so perhaps the 1912 C46 set (which also lacks advertising and has never conclusively been proven to be an Imperial Tobacco release) was printed concurrently with the stylistically similar T207 set and a different print company besides ALC was used due to whatever resources were legally available to the sub-companies that were releasing these sets.

[Bridwell]

Hi Marc,
I have a partial list of ATC brands that went to Liggett & Myers in 1911. It includes Coupon, Piedmont and Fatima, and some others, then says '15 additional smaller domestic brands'.

I have Recruit, Napoleon and Coupon packs with Liggett & Myers printed on them. I also have Broadleaf and Cycle packs with no manufacturer listed, but those were probably made pre-1911. Broadleaf and Cycle did go to L & M in 1911, as well, I believe. I found one other web site that said they went to L & M. No idea about Red Cross. I suspect Red Cross went to Lorillard, since that's who made Red Cross when ATC acquired them.

Ron R

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks for that info Ron. That would seem to exclude Coupon from my theory as one of the Anonymous brands (unless they simply chose not to advertise for some other reason) but all other brands would still fit and if Red Cross did indeed return to Lorillard, that may explain the extremely short print run. I also find it interesting that Piedmont was one of the L&M brands yet is not an advertising back on T207's after being the flagship brand for T206 and T205. I wonder if there is a chance that they were the Anonymous Factory 25 brand as they primarily distributed from Factory 25 on the T205's and T206's. Maybe Piedmont and Coupon were originally set to be T207 advertising brands along with their fellow L&M brands of Recruit, Cycle, Broadleaf, and Napoleon but something occurred to cause that brand to be removed from display.

[Bridwell]

After the break-up of American Tobacco Company in May 1911, perhaps Liggett & Myers would have been required to re-sign the players to a new authorization agreement in order to use their names and images. Perhaps the players were more difficult to sign, after they saw how popular the T206's had become. Maybe the players wanted compensation. By 1911 some players were getting paid to endorse products and the game had increased in popularity compared to 1908. The players who weren't pictured on a card yet were easier to sign, if Liggett & Myers wasn't offering any payment.

I don't think the players received any payment for the use of their images on T206. The famous Neal Ball letter asked for his permission but doesn't offer any payment.

Ron R

[marcdelpercio]

Good point Ron. It completely makes sense that any licensing contracts they had with the players would need to be reworked after the break-up. With the explosion of popularity of tobacco cards and the many competing caramel sets, I'm sure the top players' asking prices would have been quite a bit higher than 2-3 years previous when they were compensated very little if at all. That would certainly explain the lack of most of the major stars of the era and the inclusion of so many obscure players.

[sox1903wschamp]

Here are a couple Anon 3's

[marcdelpercio]

Here are a few Napoleon backs which I believe to be one of the most underrated as far as difficulty of any tobacco brand in any set. Also a super tough brown ink Anonymous and a blank back.

[timn1]

Hi guys,
I've enjoyed reading this T207 thread.

-- The next issue of the Old Cardboard email newsletter will have a mini-article written by me and Lyman that will touch on a few of these issues, although it's meant primarily for neophytes rather than veterans, who will know most of it. Check it out, though.

-- Given the discussion above about the breakup of the ATC, here's an excerpt from the final paragraphs of my VCBC article that I thought might lead to some fun speculation--

"For some reason, enthusiasm for the whole promotion dries up earlier than anticipated, and all production ceases at once, leaving the “second series” Recruits and the Broadleaf-Cycle group forever scarcer than the rest. This could have been caused simply by the end of the baseball season, or more momentously by the fallout from the 1911 breakup of the American Tobacco Company under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, which brought the great age of nationally issued baseball tobacco cards to an end.

An abrupt ending to production might help to explain the set’s strange lack of big stars, and the inclusion of so many obscure figures. The cards of Hank Butcher and Buddy Ryan both refer to their play alongside Cleveland’s slugging young outfielder Joe Jackson, who had hit .408 in 1911 and would hit .395 in 1912. Given the copywriters’ interest in him, why does Jackson himself not appear in T207? Were these references to Jackson on other cards meant to hint at his eventual appearance?

Was T207 originally conceived as a successor to the massive multi-series set which had just ended in 1911? Could the original plan have been to produce several hundred cards over a period of years, as T206 had been? The lack of star players in the set makes more sense if we imagine it as the first issues of a larger set.

We may never know for sure why the set never got past 200, or if it was ever meant to. But there may be enough evidence at least to imagine a larger T207 including such legends as Cobb, Mathewson, Lajoie, Plank, and Joe Jackson."

[Bridwell]

Hi Tim,

Your articles on T207 are the best I've seen. Congrats!

If my figures are correct, there are 199 different players in T207 (Mitchell is pictured twice, confusing Mike with Willie). Of those, only 13 are HOFers (6.5%).

By comparison, there are about 389 different players in T206. There are 38 different HOFers, some with multiple poses. There are also about 260 different players in T206 that are on major league teams. 34 of the HOFers were major leaguers at the time. The others were minor leaguers. So 34 HOFers out of 260 is 13% stars.

T207 could have been originally designed as a bigger set, but maybe not much bigger. Without minor leaguers and multiple poses, there are almost as many players pictured as T206! (199 players vs. 260) Yet there is half the percentage of stars (6.5% vs. 13% for T206). To match the T206 numbers for major leaguers the speculative 'unpublished series' of T207's would have to contain 61 different players, with 21 being stars. It seems unlikely that the set designers would save so many stars for the final series. Therefore, the theory that halted production explains the lack of stars in T207 is not a good theory IMO.

Ron

[Drew]

Hi Everybody
Congratulations Mike on completing your T 207 set. I started my set in
2001 and finished in 2004. It was a bear of a journey but enjoyable. I got lucky
at the Fort Washington show in September of 2002 when I came across a
dealer who had just purchased a near set of the brown backgrounds.
When I saw the four stacks of cards he had I became very excited and nervous.
Well I spent all of the cash I had on me. Forty-one cards at one show. He had many of the
tough cards like Donlin,Downey,Butcher,Rasmussen,Tyler,Ragan,Gregg, Blanding, etc. He had the
Ward Miller but I was broke. I made arrangements to send him a check
for the Miller. The forty-one cards brought my total to 173 cards.
I stll needed the Lewis,Saier,Lowdermilk,Speaker,Weaver,Thomas,Bauma n,White,
Phelan, plus others toughies and Livingston C,which was the last card I got from Dan M to finish the
set.
While bidding for 207's on ebay I noticed a familar name who would always be
a regular bidder Bob M.
TBob was the guy who helped me the most,sharing his knowledge of the set
with me, anwering all my questions and going head to head with me on ebay
battling for cards. We partnered along with Dan M to win a three card auction in
one of Lew Lipset auctions. I got the Lewis with emblem card i dont remember what
the other two cards were now.
I am now in the process of doing a bit of upgrading to my set.
drew