Grading hits home

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Posted By: runscott

I really like the SGC "presentation", and since I'm not a set collector, it also helps makes a bunch of cool cards that look nothing alike, look like they sort of go together...and the slab protects them.

When I first started collecting I didn't even consider slabbed cards, because I thought it was stupid - I wanted to be able to hold my cards and look at them with nothing in the way. I understand your points about newbies thinking the slab ensures the product is legitimate - I never had to deal with that issue until later so I didn't consider it.

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Posted By: Julie

Would be great. Never happen.

It seems to me that a beginning collector IS likely to start out buying cheaper cards. Why should the idea enter his head to suddenly spend a K on a piece of cardboard? The other things he spends that kind of money on still crowd his consciousness--another hobby, stocks, a vacation, a present for someone. I'm suspicious of people who jump in with both feet and then moan because their 5K Cobb is a fake...

"I could" "care" a lot "less"!

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Posted By: barrysloate

In the end if people like their cards slabbed, there's nothing really wrong with it. Ultimately, every card in the hobby will one day be slabbed, and there will be no raw cards left. Maybe it's not my favorite part of the hobby, and I think we all agree there are definitely problems with it, but I suppose if that's what collectors like, then there is a need for it. There will probably be other changes down the road that we don't anticipate even today, and with ebay, it's clearly too dangerous to buy raw cards from nameless and faceless dealers who may be selling out of the back of a station wagon with a laptop, so I guess they serve a useful purpose.
Just a quick question: for those collectors who own thousands of cards, and consequently thousands of slabs, how do you store/display them? I recall years ago having my T205/T206 sets all fit in plastic pages in one binder. Do today's collectors have these sets in 800 slabs? You would need a flatbed just to move them around the house.

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Posted By: Mark M.

I might still think the card was real today if I hadn't sent it in to SGC who informed me it was counterfeit. In other words, if not for a grading company, I would not have even known to press the seller for my money back.

I have bought a lot of vintage cards by now, but I simply do not trust myself to be able to tell a counterfeit from a legit card in person, let alone over the internet. I certainly would not be able to tell a trimmed or altered card on the internet. I'm not in "the business" (and I work 60 hours a week which leaves little time to apprentice under a bb card dealer), so I'm not going to be handling lots of n162s and Texas Tommys and learning about vintage cards on the job. Rather I'm an attorney trying to collect all the HOFers and the last thing I want it to toss and turn, wondering if my n28 Comiskey is real or not, or whether it has a nasty "paper wrinkle" that I can't detect because I do not own a microscope or infrared lighting.

I could be mistaken, but I think with the advent of the internet, there are many new collectors/investors who, like myself, cannot tell based on a scan whether a rare card type is authentic. I would likely stop collecting tomorrow though if grading companies did not exist because it's gut-wrenching to think you might have spent $1k on a reprint.

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Posted By: Mark M.

"I'm suspicious of people who jump in with both feet and then moan because their 5K Cobb is a fake..."

Julie: I'm not sure what you're "suspicious" of. I can tell you that, in my case, I jumped in with both feet when I got out of law school, found I had ample discretionary income to purchase baseball cards, a hobby I had while growing up, as well as stocks and vacations. It also seems with ebay and the internet, that the dealer mark-up is no longer so dramatic - I remember when price guides reflected both a "buy" price and a "sell" price, and any card one bought from a dealer could only be sold back for half as much - this fact makes spending thousands of dollars on cards less foolish in my mind, not that I have any immediate plans to sell my cards.

Yes, I did moan (and even groan) when I learned the $1k+ Anson was a fake. But that's precisely my point - I buy even rarer cards today and, because they are slabbed, no more moaning!

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Posted By: Julie

???

O.K. So I started out fairly poor, and didn't have any hobby experience. But maybe, even if you have the dough, you should start out slow. If you follow the often repeated dictum of buying the card, not the holder, I guess you're safe enough..but the cards I've bought graded, I don't reslly feel I KNOW them till I've liberated them...and somewtimes, the encounter is not as pleasant as I thought it would be! (You buy on the internet, you KNOW you don't know what you're going to get, since every scan can tell a thoudsand lies.)

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Posted By: runscott

if you had the ability yourself to tell if a card was fake. I quit collecting '34 Goudeys because I never trusted anything I got in the mail. Now I'm more confident and might start collecting them again. It is really no fun whatsoever to get an item and have doubts as to its authenticity - I have had cards that I wasn't sure were real, so I sent them to a grading company and they were slabbed...I'm still not sure.

But I don't understand your buying an Anson, just because you had the money. If I became wealthy right now, I would definitely want a Mantle rookie. But I wouldn't buy one, the reason being that I have never collected '50s cards and wouldn't have a clue if it was legit or had been trimmed. Actually, I have enough contacts that I could buy a legitimate one easy enough, but if I was a newbie - no way. I'd buy some commons first - cheap, beat-up ones that a seller would have had no incentive to alter or fake. Then I'd buy some nicer condition ones, similar to what I was looking for in a Mantle. I'd loupe the hell out of them, then I'd ask some questions of other collectors, like: "Is this card commonly reprinted?" "Does this issue vary much in size?", etc.

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Posted By: Dr. Koos

"No, Scott - Mantle rookies are rarely reprinted, and size varies greatly...I have one for you, and it's slabbed."

(above is runscott trying to be funny, and is in no way meant to be taken as a re-entry of the real Dr. Koos to this forum)

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Posted By: dstudeba

Personally I have no interest in becoming an expert in authentication. That is what third party grading/respectible dealers are for. You pay them for their knowledge and expertise. I really don't get the whole start off slow and learn how to authenticate for yourself bit. Why waste that time when you can pay a professional to do it? We all get sick often enough, but not many of us have been to medical school and can write our own prescriptions. I myself don't have the time or desire to learn how to authenticate all the issues I am interested in. That is why I pay someone else to do it.

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Posted By: runscott

think about it

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Posted By: Julie

...but cards aren't medical perscriptioins. I have a small (75 items) 19th century collection, and not one of them is slabbed. Like all the rest of my cards.

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Posted By: runscott

I agree that they SHOULD be experts...the problem is that they aren't. If pharmacies ran their operations the way the grading companies do, there's no telling what we'd get in our prescription bottles - might be fun.

And as others have pointed out, a problem is that newbies THINK the grading companies employee people who know more than the average collector, but I think the exact opposite is true.

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Posted By: dstudeba

I understand there is an anti-grading contingent and that is fine. I have plenty of cards that I have no intention of grading. I just don't understand the "You shouldn't buy a Mantle Rookie you want until you can authenticate it yourself"

Sorry my analogy didn't work for you, maybe stocks and investment advisor is better.

Unfortunately like stocks, there are plenty of strange things going on that you only learn after being in the hobby a while. I learn things every day, and realize there are more shortcomings of grading companies than I knew of when I started. This website has been especially helpful in that regard. Fortunately I am interested in cards that most folks wouldn't take the time to reprint!

edited to account for runscott's reply

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Posted By: runscott

It's good you can afford the consequences of relying on non-experts to certify your purchases - many people (such as myself) simply can't afford to eat a fake Anson. And I hope you aren't serious about feeling more comfortable with the grading companies' certification of more obscure high-dollar stuff - no, they aren't all reprinted, but some of them ARE forged...and there is even MORE incentive to alter or restore expensive cards.

In all seriousness, it is your money and your decision to spend as much time as you desire educating yourself about the cards you buy. That's a lot of the fun for me.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

Livin on reds, vitamin C and Old Judge....

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Posted By: Mark Holt

Just about everything that can be said has been said on this string but what the heck, I'll throw my 2 cents in. I've collected since 1959. I have a good mix of T206 to 1994 baseball and plenty of other sports cards. Most of my stuff is 'raw' and when grading started I thought it was ridiculous. Now I'm in the process of getting my T206s, Diamond Stars, C55 Hockey, and other old sets graded.

Why?
1. Because there are no card stores near me. Buying on eBay is the only way I'll expand my collection at what I believe are reasonable prices. No offense to dealers reading this but thanks to eBay I don't have to pay your overhead any more. There are a batch of eBay resellers I trust and I buy raw cards from them. But I'll buy graded cards from anyone with decent feedback. There are millions of graded cards from the top three services and while the grade itself is subjective I'd bet that less than 1% are fakes or altered. I bet the % of raw cards with problems on eBay is 30% or more.
2. My son has no interest in cards. When I croak my wife will sell the stuff off and she'll get some decent money with the older stuff graded.
3. I like the PSA Set Registry, call me nuts if you want but its interesting to see where your sets are ranked.
4. The look of the slabbed cards grows on you (although it did take me about 6 years).
5. Slabbed cards are not going to get further damage (I know some move around in some inserts but how many corners have you dinged just looking at them or putting them in albums?).

In summary, my collection will always have both graded and raw cards. I can't see going to the expense of grading all my Topps sets so I'm getting them in Roop albums. But the older stuff can be stored in a few boxes and a few of them displayed nicely. Grading is here to stay and as Rodney King said 'Can't we all get along?'

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Posted By: Mark M.

I don't really understand the "start out slow" advice myself. Are posters saying if I bought some cheap n162s, examined the cardboard, I'd then be able to detect reprints over the internet? If I did manage to purchase a cheap n162, chances are it would be cheap because it was fake. Anyway, I too cannot afford to eat a fake Anson (I actually got my $$ back from the infamous eagle8016) so I set up certain prerequisites for buying expensive cards: (i) good feedback, (ii) pay through paypal (credit card protection) and (iii) slabbed. I appreciate the advice because I realize posters are just trying to save me money (isn't this website an offshoot of the SGC site..haha), but it just isn't very practical/possible for me to learn about all the different pre-war cards. Even experienced collectors on this thread admit to sometimes not being able to detect reprints - I'd rather pay more for cards I know (or am very confident) are real and (pretty often) unaltered.

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Posted By: Julie

".......ain't it a shame!"<br />(that's ther very end of the "Truckin'" verse about "reds and vitamin c and cocaine, but I couldn't remember the rest of the line--something about Jane...)

Red Sox WS pin arrived today; it couldn't have picked a better time!

Should I get it slabbed?

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Posted By: Tbob

Waaaay up this thread, Dan talks about the relative inexperience of graders vis a vis vintage, scarcer cards and how the graders are more comfortable and knowledgeable grading McGwire rookies and cards from the 80's and 90's and 00's. I agree 100%. A case in pint is the 1909 Obak set. Unlike the 1910 and 1911 sets, the 1909 Obaks were almost all hand cut and yet nice 09s which have sat in a collection for over 25 years are routinely sent back as "trimmed." I have tried to get the whole 1909 set graded by the 3 bigger grading companies, PSA, SGC and GAI, but it is almost impossible for this reason.
I also shake my head in wonder when a vintage caramel card from an E94 or E98 set or an M116 Spoting Life card is sent back with "evidence of trimming" and yet I see certain collector/dealers having their obviously trimmed cards sail through. It's very frustating for the small time collector. I guess there is no answer, thanks for letting me rant...

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Posted By: Julie

........I mean, they have to keep up with SGC, and they don't know enough to do it legitimately...

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Posted By: Gary B.

"Red Sox WS pin arrived roday; it couldn't have picked a better time! Should I get it slabbed?"

Julie - I would say you have to in order to protect its value in case you ever want to resell it. It will, however, look awfully funny pinned to your sweater incased in a big rectangular block of plastic with an SGC label on the top, but it must be done, otherwise how will anyone know it's real?

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Posted By: PASJD

If you don't trust the grading companies, and feel that you are capable of making authentication judgments for yourself, buy raw cards. If you don't feel that you are capable of making judgments for yourself, either take your chance on raw cards, or buy slabbed ones recognizing there is still going to be a significant error rate but at least you have some protection in terms of resale value because for better or worse the market has more or less commodotized graded cards. Card graders vary widely in experience. I have no doubt that they make lots of mistakes (hopefully innocent ones), but on the whole I also have no doubt that they do a much better job of authenticating than I could do. So I buy graded cards. If you feel otherwise, don't buy them. But why people are so shocked and outraged to see a card that superficially looks ok end up in a TWO holder (and why someone would suggest "calling the authorities", I read it quickly but didn't think it was tongue in cheek), I do not understand at all.

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Posted By: Gary B.

"Livin on reds, vitamin C and Old Judge...."

Creepy - I was just listening to Truckin' by the Grateful Dead not 1 minute before I saw these words you posted...

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Posted By: Gary B.

would be if someone created a website (or even a thread here) where they put up good quality scans of cards in different grades - for example, 4 or 5 cards from different issues that were poor, 4 or 5 that were poor/fair, then fair, fair/good, good, good/very good, very good, very good/excellent, excellent, excellent/nr mint, near mint, near mint/mint, mint, gem mint, etc. - it's hard to depend on websites for card dealers or ebay to get a sense of this as people tend to exaggerate when selling, and people's standards vary so drastically - if someone who was very good at this did this as a service of what they thought were accurate examples of each grade, it would certainly help me to be able to more accurately self-grade my own cards and other ones i'm considering buying. anyone up for it?

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Gary-

Check the collector sites that are in the Vintage Links page. There are lots of examples across these sites.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I don't think that will necessarily work. Scans are very subjective - and often don't cover nuances like wrinkles, creases, etc. If you are ever very interested in the subject - Levi Bleam has a very nice run of 1952 Topps Mickey mantle cards in almost every grade from 1-7. If he no longer has them in inventory - he might have the scans stored somewhere.

Especially with the lower-end graded cards, it can be such a variety of things that knock it down. A perfectly-centered strong card with great corners that has a crease. A card with great corners that is centered very poorly, and the submitter did not want a qualifier. Sometimes a minute pinhole on a T3 makes it a 1, but nonetheless very beautiful. Back damage can often misalign a card. A good example of a card with back damage is shown below (owned by Jay Wolt - a great guy in the hobby):



Thus - I think, at the end of the day, especially with grades 1-5, you may see cards with great eye appeal, and you may see cards that look like they've gone through a washing machine. Scans only do so much - and (in my mind) they tend to focus people too much on centering - and often mask other concerns (light corner wear).

Best-
~ms

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Posted By: Jason

If you have a fake slabbed isn't that grading company responsible in compensating you? I'm pretty sure SGC will...

Anyways I live in Saskatchewan. There isn't a dealer in 100's of miles so I'm forced to use the internet to buy 19th century baseball cards. (Not that I don't mind the internet) When it comes to Ebay its nice to have cards graded. I've bought raw on Ebay before and only had one card trimmed (Got my money back)

Anyways I'm not that trusting on Ebay. I'm fine with buying raw from a site like Lipset, Mastro, etc...

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Posted By: Gary B.

at this stage in my collecting, i'm really not over-fanatical about grades, and card grading holds very little interest to me, especially since most of the cards i buy are under $50, usually under $25 - seems silly to spend $10 to grade those unless i want to resell them, and i'm not collecting to resell.

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Posted By: runscott

first, it's possible to be okay with the "concept" of what grading companies "should" be, but not like in the least what they actually are.

As far as the other stuff - you guys spend your time and money however you want...my fingers are getting tired.

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Posted By: Anonymous

keep truckin’, like the do-dah man
Together, more or less in line, just keep truckin’ on.

Arrows of neon and flashing marquees out on main street.
Chicago, new york, detroit and it’s all on the same street.
Your typical city involved in a typical daydream
Hang it up and see what tomorrow brings.

Dallas, got a soft machine; houston, too close to new orleans;
New york’s got the ways and means; but just won’t let you be, oh no.

Most of the cast that you meet on the streets speak of true love,
Most of the time they’re sittin’ and cryin’ at home.
One of these days they know they better get goin’
Out of the door and down on the streets all alone.

Truckin’, like the do-dah man. once told me you’ve got to play your hand
Sometimes your cards ain’t worth a dime, if you don’t lay’em down,

Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it’s been.

What in the world ever became of sweet jane?
She lost her sparkle, you know she isn’t the same
Livin’ on reds, vitamin c, and cocaine,
All a friend can say is ain’t it a shame?

Truckin’, up to buffalo. been thinkin’, you got to mellow slow
Takes time, you pick a place to go, and just keep truckin’ on.

Sittin’ and starin’ out of the hotel window.
Got a tip they’re gonna kick the door in again
I’d like to get some sleep before I travel,
But if you got a warrant, I guess you’re gonna come in.

Busted, down on bourbon street, set up, like a bowlin’ pin.
Knocked down, it get’s to wearin’ thin. they just won’t let you be, oh no.

You’re sick of hangin’ around and you’d like to travel;
Get tired of travelin’ and you want to settle down.
I guess they can’t revoke your soul for tryin’,
Get out of the door and light out and look all around.

Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me;
Other times I can barely see.
Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it’s been.

Truckin’, I’m a goin’ home. whoa whoa baby, back where I belong,
Back home, sit down and patch my bones, and get back truckin’ on.
Hey now get back truckin’ home.

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Posted By: DD

I personally think American Beauty is the greatest album ever recorded. Not a bad song on it. Ripple is one of my all time favorite songs.

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Posted By: Julie

Love, love, love it picks you up and spins you round,
Sets you right back down where you belong.

I bought a blasted guitar because of that album...

Ah yes--"All a friend can say is ain't it a shame"

Different album--Workingman's Dead, isn't it?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I hate the idea of checking my cards carefully. I am more into the overview perspective of each card. This is why a card which grades better than ex holds no premium value for me.

But circumstances arise that require additional effort to validate authenticity. I am about to embark on the assembly of a grouping of drawn '20s strip cards. These cards appear to be easily counterfeited. And many individual cards are inexpensive.

So slabbing is not cost effective. I have to learn to authenticate them myself. I have bought a black light (I think). And have tried it once - without success. I wonder what my short term future will bring.

I don't want to do this, but I have to be a big boy. Noone will do it for me, and the thieves on eBay will not beat me (often).

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Posted By: Gary B.

Truckin' is off American Beauty, but in my humble opinion, between their two 1970 classics, Workingman's Dead is the masterpiece. Wake of the Flood is another (very underrated) masterpiece, and Anthem of the Sun is their crowning achievement (though perhaps too psychedelic for most). Nice to know there are some fellow Grateful Dead fans who also collect vintage cards. Who woulda thunk it?

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Posted By: Anonymous

..measuring the GD musical works and legacy by their albums is...

....perhaps akin to measuring Babe Ruth by his stolen bases or ability to bunt.

There never was and never will be anything quite like a Grateful Dead concert.

Now.... back to our topic.

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Posted By: Chris B.

Did the person who emailed Mike Baker about the CJ Johnson ever hear back from him? I am curious to hear what he said about this card.

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Posted By: Marc S.

However, since I also pointed him to this thread, and he did not respond directly here - I felt it inappropriate to copy his comments to me here.

His major points were:

A) There are tons of sizing variations with pre-war cards. Measuring a card really is not indicative of anything - as there are many examples that are "standard" size that are in fact trimmed oversized examples.

B) As for the hole, he felt that nothing was added. He suggested that flattening it in a screw down or something of the sort may have patched up the hole. That - combined with the water added, certainly adds something to consider.

~ms

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Posted By: Anonymous

I would rather stay off topic. Those Dead lyrics made a great start to the day. Keep them coming.

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Posted By: Julie

Tiger Rose. Tiger Rose (lyrics by Robert Hunter) is actually my favorite, but I also love (songs) Truckin', Ripple,
St. Stephen, That's It for the Other One, Uncle John's Band, and a whole bunch more.
But "Last Flash of Rock and Roll" and "Yellow Moon" are tops...
Incidentally, I think what happened to Ben's card SUCKS...GAI had no business grading it a 3, if there were ANY KIND OF HOLE, folded over or whatever--in it! Which there clearly WAS.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Julie. It was not a 3. It was a 2. Had the pinhole been completely visible it would have been a 1.5. The card is also not trimmed according to 2 people who have far more experience grading cards than all of you who post here combined.

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Posted By: runscott

GAI could hire someone from McDonald's, that person could then "grade" one card, and he would have more experience than all of us combined. Don't you feel more comfortable now about sending in your cards?

Greg's same old mantra - if a grading company doesn't see a problem, then there is no problem....CJ Johnson...e95 Cobb...what other surprises do you have for us Greg?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

If a grading company says a card is ok then it is ok with me. Unlike many of you, I have faith in the system (although not perfect), which is why I employ their services. I am not so paranoid as to think that the world is out to get me not am I too proud to defer to someone who I know has more experience than me.

And once again, I want to thank Scott for the unprovoked attack on me. SO predictable. Two days ago you had no issue with the Johnson.

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Posted By: Bryan

This is great example of some people who trade, buy ETC just to get money and make a living. There are indiviuals out there that will take advantage of others just to make a buck. That is the way life is. Sometimes you win - sometimes you don't. I think this issure has taught me a lesson.

I think I'll stop reading this thread as it is starting to upset my collecting good vibe:) Good luck all, I hope that this one gets resolved - even though I know it won't.

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Posted By: Julie

if I could make the whole THREAD disappear, not just my post....


It really is hard to get mad at someone's ideas, and not get mad at them, ain't it?

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Posted By: runscott

You're a capitalist taking advantage of a flawed system.

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Posted By: DD

Ben,
You state in the original post that you believed the card was trimmed. Did you actually measure the card? Did it measure exactly what other cards of that issue measure? We already know that grading companies typically reject cards from some issues where the factory or hand cutting process was older and inconsistent. Is this true of Cracker Jack cards?

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Scott. I am a businessman. Like it or not. I just do not share your opinion of graded cards and the lack of merit in the service. It is true the system is not perfect but that does not mean it has no value and should not be employed.

If you do not like graded cards then you should not submit to the grading services or buy graded cards. Certainly I would not be critical of you for making that choice, and in fact I understand why you feel as you do. Personally speaking, my collection is all graded and I would not have it any other way even though during my lifetime none of these cards will be sold.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I agree with the member that suggested turning this matter over to the authorities.

We can debate all day long as to what is and what isn't considered "restoration". It doesn't matter. The fact is, this card was altered for the sole purpose of increasing its value. It was then sold without disclosure. That, my friends, is fraud.

It makes absolutely no difference that the grade of the card only went from a 1.5 to a 2. It also makes absolutely no difference that the value of the card only increased a hundred or so dollars. It is still fraud.

Don't buy the argument that, if it was altered/restored, more work would have been done. Remember, folks, $20 bills are counterfeited at a much higher rate than $100 bills are. This approach is to draw less attention to the criminal activities. The same applies with card doctors.

We should not accept or tolerate this fraudulent practice and the only way to put an end to it is to speak up and do something about it. Realize that this is not a one time thing. This person has already been caught doing this on at least 3 occasions -- e95 cobb, e90-1 mitchell, and now the CJ Johnson.

Sitting here and talking about the Grateful Dead will not solve the problem.

This person is knowingly committing fraud and hiding behind the grading companies in the same manner that the Long Island boys were doing with PRO. He seems to think that this is ok. I say that we let the authorities decide if his practices are ok. I can almost guarantee that they won't feel it's ok. Also, considering his close relationship with the folks at GAI, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up going down as accomplices to his crimes.

At the very least, we are talking about mail and wire fraud -- both of which are federal offenses. I've also heard that this person resides in the state of California. I believe that California has their own laws regarding selling altered cards without disclosure.

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Posted By: Julie

it doesn't seem so minor to me--somebody is trying to line their pockets, no matter how minimally, with chasnging the face of a baseball card.

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Posted By: runscott

But it responds to thoughts that I don't have. If you want to go back, re-read what I said about grading companies, then post something relevant, I'll be glad to reply.