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  #1  
Old 12-02-2012, 10:27 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Default Piedmont 150 plate scratch(es) progress

A while back I noticed a piedmont 150 back with what looked like a line from a plate scratch.

Figuring that there was a scratch caused by some debris towards the end of production, I started looking for more examples hoping to maybe find 4 or 5 that strung together which would be a step towards figuring out the sheet layout in some concrete form. Combining this with double name cards and miscuts might lead to figuring out a block of cards rather than just a couple pairs.

After a few months of looking mostly on Ebay I've found nearly 30 cards showing some part of the plate scratch.

That back plate got way messed up at some point.

At least one scratch running vertically, at least two runing horizontally, probably more like 3 or 4.

I've also found one other plate flaw that's consistent, and found on two different cards.

Here's an example of one of the plate scratches. This one on a Cobb bat on shoulder, which has so far 3 different positions showing different damage.


Cobb bat on also has one where the lines cross near the center of the card and one without a crossing line as well as a normal back.

Another surprise has been figuring out that the damaged plate was used for more than one group of fronts
And some evidence that it was eventually repaired to some degree but I'm not certain about that

If you've got scans of cards showing thses lines I'd be glad to see them and add to the ones I've seen so far. Don't worry about it being the same as one I already have, as I'm trying to figure out the posible repair and a few other things.

Steve B
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  #2  
Old 12-03-2012, 12:35 AM
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I don't want to get this off-topic from the plate scratches, but what you said about piecing a sheet together was on my mind today. I figured between the miscuts with two different players, the cards with the crop marks in the corners and the nearly impossible to find, piedmont backs printed upside-down, with parts of four backs showing, you might be able to put together a possible sheet layout. I figured the pied/upside/4backs are so rare(seven are known to me) that you could assume they came from the same sheet.

You just added a new way to figure out a possible sheet, that I never even thought about.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:36 AM
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Steve, this might be obvious, but I hate to assume anything, so please clarify if I am incorrect: the scratches are on a 'Piedmont backs' plate? If so, won't it be impossible to determine anything about card placement on the FRONT of the sheet? (since the Piedmont back sheet will be the same, but the cards on the front will change?)
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:05 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Only partly.
The scratched plate was probably only used to print backs for a couple different sheets. I'm certain it was used for two different sheets and I'm hoping that's as far as it went.
(There are also maybe two different groups of scratches, one distinct the other not. The second looks more like it may be a crayon mark, perhaps indicating the plate should have been redone or erased for reuse if it was a stone)

It's still a bit early to tell much for sure, but I'm also looking at other identifying marks on the backs as well as specific front differences.

Between all of it it may be possible to get closer to a sheet layout.
It will be possible to get fairly close to a more provable sheet size.

I had thought that the scratches would have been on the last use of the plate, but that's turning out to not be the case.

Of the cards I've seen, there's one that throws a wrench in the works.
There's a Schulte front view showing the scratch.
But that can't be from the same sheet as the others because the available backs aren't the same.

I have found one of the other marks on two different cards, which means that the two couldn't have been on the same sheet. But that's something for a different thread.

At the worst, the scratches will show us a group of cards that were probably on the same sheet and roughly where they were.

We'll also be able to get a grasp on other things, for instance we know there were multiples of each card on the sheet from the double name cards. And we know there were sometimes different cards vertically from the double/different name cards.
Studying the backs in relation to the fronts should show for instance that there were 4 of each player stacked vertically (The number I'm currently leaning towards)

Steve B
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Only partly.

It will be possible to get fairly close to a more provable sheet size.
Cool - hadn't thought of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post

Studying the backs in relation to the fronts should show for instance that there were 4 of each player stacked vertically (The number I'm currently leaning towards)

Steve B
Are you also thinking that some cards are 'top sheet only' cards and others are 'bottom only'? (for instance, the ones showing remnants of the factory number at the bottom of the sheet?)

Great little project!
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:59 AM
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Steve,

Not sure if this is what your looking for but this Piedmont has a similar line.
Also whats your opinion on the lines in this Cycle card?
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:24 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Are you also thinking that some cards are 'top sheet only' cards and others are 'bottom only'? (for instance, the ones showing remnants of the factory number at the bottom of the sheet?)

Great little project!
That's what I'm thinking.

Although I'd expect to see more with two different names if that was the case. And that's why I'm not entirely set on 4 being the number of instances of the same player.

But from looking at the rare cards, 4 looks pretty solid. I'm sure there are 3-4 Magies that can be told apart even from scans that aren't great. And that each diferent Magie front matches to a specific back.

Steve B
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:25 AM
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Awesome work Pat! This is starting to get exciting...for me at least

Looking forward to your thoughts on Plank John.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:56 AM
wonkaticket wonkaticket is offline
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Almost forgot Chris...here ya go.

Sometimes to me the simplest explanation is the most plausible…Occam’s razor if you will.

My theory is the T206 Plank card is a victim of bad timing and planning.

What I do know and this could be challenged as I don’t claim to know of all the Planks out there. However having kept pretty good records and images of most since around say 1999 I’ve noticed one thing. A good chunk of these cards are 350 series only about 17-20 of the 50+ sold Planks I’ve seen come across the auction block have been 150’s. Of this 17-20 (150’s) this includes the 4 Piedmont examples. Now one could argue people keep the better looking 150’s and dumped the 350’s at auction but I think in the 13 or so years we would have seen a few more.

Given the numbers of 150 vs. 350 I think Plank was added late in the 150 printing process and was obviously carried to the 350. Then for whatever reason was dumped from the sheet for another player, or was missed when laying out the second run of 350’s therefore making him a short printed card. Add a hundred plus years of bicycle spokes and mom’s tossing cards and I’m paying big bucks for Mr. Plank.

What was the process of the sheets, why or how I have no idea. Some folks on here mainly Tim Cathey, Jim Rivera and you Chris along with others have done a good job trying to figure it out etc.

The whole anti-tobacco thing I have a hard time getting behind for two main reasons. Plank is in other tobacco sets mainly via his Horner photo being used on a lot of them. Then second if there really was this anti-tobacco action from Plank why was he carried over to 350. Seems to me if I’m getting nasty grams from Plank I’m not doing two printings of him.

I also add my personal experience into this. Owning a company of which one of our divisions is producing premiums and or retail products for entertainment based IP’s. I know how things get misplaced or made in smaller qty’s due to timing or just simple human oversight. I doubt it was any different 100+ years ago short of technology.

Like I said I’m sure this could be torn apart, but ultimately it’s a theory and with no smoking gun or proof all we can do is speculate…this is my speculation.

Cheers,

John

Last edited by wonkaticket; 12-21-2012 at 03:59 AM.
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2012, 05:08 AM
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Default baseball cards

Daniels explained this to me about 10 years ago. He said, "Rob, It's only TBob and those guys, no-one else collects this stuff."
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