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  #541  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:15 AM
Whodunit Whodunit is offline
Cort.ney De.Lorme
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
If they're facts, prove them. How do we know it was Brent that bought it from REA? Once again, prove your statement, otherwise it's just speculation.
Go away moron. We've stated (several people on here) that an ex REA employee has told several of us that Brent bought this card AND BRENT ADMITTED DIRECTLY TO ME VIA TEXT THAT HE WON THEM. iF YOUQUESTION THAT, SCROLL UP AND EDUCATE YOURSELF......I posted the screenshot and email. So, STFU and go away. Or is it possible for you not to troll waters that you're not smart enough to even wade across when it's 1/4" deep.

Or keep responding, it's simply much easier for me to ignore the clueless morons like yourself than to fight a futile battle with an uneducated moron. But, I do wonder, how many of my many millions in cards that Brent sold for me do you actually own?

Last edited by Whodunit; 02-17-2017 at 10:17 AM.
  #542  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:16 AM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
If they're facts, prove them. How do we know it was Brent that bought it from REA? Once again, prove your statement, otherwise it's just speculation.
We know because people who are in a position to know told me and told Cortney, and because Brent has been confronted with it and did not deny it. Indeed, I believe he explicitly admitted it to Cortney. Do you want an invoice? At some point David you are going to reach the end of that limb, if you are not already there.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 02-17-2017 at 10:17 AM.
  #543  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:20 AM
PhillipAbbott79 PhillipAbbott79 is offline
Phillip Abbott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Damn, you're stupid! The only multi year history here is the every other month witch hunt and bitching and complaining about PWCC. It's the same people over and over, like the OP of this thread. You're just too new (and stupid) to realize it.
What is your point? You have been using Ebay for how long and you don't know you that you get 3 best offers? You just yap for the sake of yapping.

There you go again, not listening. Re-read the posts that people have quoted you on, then followed it up with the same comments about you.
I was reading one this morning, where you, just like the people you complain about are in the PWCC thread talking it up. No surprise.

CySemour: http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=211
Whodunit: Countless. Putting them all here is pointless.
Peter_Speath: I am not arguing any more with a guy with blinders on.

Besides the fact that I have been praised for calling you a moron from different people:
PM 1: I am sick of David and his contrarian approach. He loves to argue and spew shit for the sake of seeing his posts.
PM 2: David James will never learn; been watching him spew his garbage for years on this board.

A simple search of your username and the word idiot, returns 500 hits. 5 HUNDRED hits.

I have read countless amounts of these in my short time here as you suggest. Imagine how many more I can compile as I go? As I find them, I will keep
adding them to the list for you.

Last edited by PhillipAbbott79; 02-17-2017 at 10:23 AM. Reason: New quote
  #544  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:24 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
We know because people who are in a position to know told me and told Cortney
You're an attorney, Peter. Isn't that hearsay?
  #545  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:25 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79 View Post
What is your point? You have been using Ebay for how long and you don't know you that you get 3 best offers? You just yap for the sake of yapping.

There you go again, not listening. Re-read the posts that people have quoted you on, then followed it up with the same comments about you.
I was reading one this morning, where you, just like the people you complain about are in the PWCC thread talking it up. No surprise.

CySemour: http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=211
Whodunit: Countless. Putting them all here is pointless.
Peter_Speath: I am not arguing any more with a guy with blinders on.

Besides the fact that I have been praised for calling you a moron from different people:
PM 1: I am sick of David and his contrarian approach. He loves to argue and spew shit for the sake of seeing his posts.
PM 2: David James will never learn; been watching him spew his garbage for years on this board.

A simple search of your username and the word idiot, returns 500 hits. 5 HUNDRED hits.

I have read countless amounts of these in my short time here as you suggest. Imagine how many more I can compile as I go? As I find them, I will keep
adding them to the list for you.
Idiot!
  #546  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:26 AM
vintagetoppsguy's Avatar
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Whodunit View Post
AND BRENT ADMITTED DIRECTLY TO ME VIA TEXT THAT HE WON THEM. iF YOUQUESTION THAT, SCROLL UP AND EDUCATE YOURSELF
Where's the text? What post? Perhaps I missed it?
  #547  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:29 AM
PhillipAbbott79 PhillipAbbott79 is offline
Phillip Abbott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Idiot!
Yea. We agree with you. That was my point.
  #548  
Old 02-17-2017, 10:36 AM
bounce bounce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
And what's been presented, Peter? All I see is a text from Brent asking Cortney to quit playing games with the bidding in his auction? If PWCC did something wrong, lets find out. But, from what I can see, they haven't. That may change, who knows? But I don't see where they've done anything wrong at this point. All I hear from you and Cortney is that Brent knew the cards history before the auction and he was the one that cleaned it or had it cleaned. Prove that or be quiet!
Couple questions/issues I think are at the heart of this.

1) I think it's pretty well established that PWCC was at least in some way involved with the purchase of the card from REA, which was prior to any "changes". They were then involved with the subsequent sale of the card after those "changes", so I think it logically follows that they knew the "changes" had been made. I don't think it really matters whether they were "owners" or "brokers" from the standpoint of responsibility for the changes, they had knowledge of it.

They were then involved a 2nd time in the sale of the "changed" card, and it seems pretty clear that in neither instance did they disclose or point out that "changes" had been made. I'm not trying to make a sweeping all encompassing judgment of disclosure requirements here, but I think we can all agree in this specific example the "changes" are pretty "significant" and would be considered "material" information to many collectors.

I think a lot of people view that lack of disclosure as at least mildly dishonest, or maybe a better phrase is misleading through ommission? In either description, there's absolutely a question of "intention" is there not?


2) I don't view "string bids" (whether you take the lead or not) made at what is well less than the expected ending price of an auction to be shilling, but I also recognize that may not necessarily be the majority view - however I do think that distinction is pretty relevant to forming an opinion around the text message asking Courtney to "take the lead".

I think I tend to agree that the overall context of the text discussion is relatively harmless, except for the part where it goes to being "outbid". This is where views on string bids separate opinions. PWCC seems to "know" that the bids will go higher, and if so then why would the string bid matter whether taking the lead or not? I know folks will say it "looks bad" and PWCC even implies that understanding in the texts, but again these sorts of bids at well less than final sale price ultimately are irrelevant to the final sale price. Sure it bumps "activity", but it doesn't ultimately affect the price.

However, I acknowledge that if you fall in the camp that string bids are really a form of shilling, then the "you will get outbid" statement becomes at least somewhat concerning doesn't it?


3) I've thought a lot about what the correct designation for this card is, and I'm not able to come to a conclusion that a PSA 7 is in any way accurate. My logic is as follows. At some point, the original card "toned" except in areas on the right side that almost look like it was "clipped" or "taped", whatever prevented those areas for also toning. Somehow, the card was returned closer to it's original presentation. So from that standpoint, I don't think "altered" is the right assessment, because the toned card wasn't really in its original condition. However, removing of the toning (whether water or chemical) ultimately "restored" the card closer to the original condition and to me that is the accurate grading of the card - it's been RESTORED.

I should add that I don't believe it's always possible to know a card has been "restored", and for now I think we're giving the grader the benefit of the doubt. Although, a close inspection of the pictures here still indicate the "shadow" areas of the "clip/tape", and I probably fall in the camp that for a card at this value level that should have been identified, which I believe would have led to better understanding of its history and ultimately would have landed it in a different holder.

Last edited by bounce; 02-17-2017 at 10:44 AM.
  #549  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:00 AM
KMayUSA6060 KMayUSA6060 is offline
Kyle May
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Well, I am officially out of popcorn, and this thread has run its course.

1 very quick comment.

Shame on EVERYONE involved with this incident. Disgraceful members of the hobby. I don't care how much money anybody has or spends on the hobby. The content of one's wallet does not determine the content of one's character.

Sincerely,

A $20 collector who is happy in life
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  #550  
Old 02-17-2017, 11:10 AM
ugaskidawg ugaskidawg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce View Post
3) I've thought a lot about what the correct designation for this card is, and I'm not able to come to a conclusion that a PSA 7 is in any way accurate. My logic is as follows. At some point, the original card "toned" except in areas on the right side that almost look like it was "clipped" or "taped", whatever prevented those areas for also toning. Somehow, the card was returned closer to it's original presentation. So from that standpoint, I don't think "altered" is the right assessment, because the toned card wasn't really in its original condition. However, removing of the toning (whether water or chemical) ultimately "restored" the card closer to the original condition and to me that is the accurate grading of the card - it's been RESTORED.

I should add that I don't believe it's always possible to know a card has been "restored", and for now I think we're giving the grader the benefit of the doubt. Although, a close inspection of the pictures here still indicate the "shadow" areas of the "clip/tape", and I probably fall in the camp that for a card at this value level that should have been identified, which I believe would have led to better understanding of its history and ultimately would have landed it in a different holder.
This is murky water IMO. Not that your view is correct or not correct, I'm in no position to say. IMO, I think a lot of this is coming down to the idea of disclosure. Someone way back in this thread said something about when art is restored, people know that it has been restored. They talked about some people pay more for original paint that has been restored on a classic car, versus one that has been repainted.

This card, which is a beauty of a card has been restored, altered, adjusted, tampered with, or whatever verb you want to used. Where is the cutoff point where it should not be identified as "altered" by PSA? This is being discussed throughout multiple online forums and offline circles right now because of this whole situation. I fully agree that coloring in corners on a 71, trimming edges/corners, etc. need to be identified as "altered." Those cards should never be purchased at a premium. Does flattening a card constitute going over the line, does removing wax stains constitute going over the line, does de-toning an old card constitute going over the line. Some are fine that this card is a 7, but knowing what it looked like before the restoration of it, clouds that I think.

With all this said, I'll reiterate something a previous member posted...this card is going down as a major card now and we (and all parties involved - whatever that involvement might be) have given it provenance...like the McNall-Gretzky Wagner. This card now has a story.
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