Jackie Robinson Rookie?

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Posted By: Richard

Greetings. I consider the 1948-49 Leaf to be the Jackie Robonson rookie. Is this the consesus for most?
Thanks

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted Z will confirm that the Leaf is his rookie card. Ignore what Joe D says, he's a golf card collector anyway.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The 1949 LEAF card of Jackie Robinson is not really his 1st card (Rookie).

Here is his card from the 1947 Bond Bread set (48 cards). This card must have the rounded corners to be his true 1st card.





JEFF L
Great looking 1949 Leaf....but, as I just illustrated, it's not his true "rookie" card.


TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

It was his first nationally distributed card, but he did appear earlier on Bond Bread cards. However, these were available only in Brooklyn, so not everyone recognizes them as true rookies.

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Posted By: Matt

It is my understanding that the Leaf and Bowman sets were distributed at the same time and therefore either would qualify.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted bought the packs himself in 1949. He'll set the record straight.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Same year, Matt, but not same time. Leaf was first. Ted, now you need to find me one of those round-cornered Bond Bread cards! I've got a square-cornered Bond Bread (portrait) of his but nothing round.

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Posted By: fkw

I just picked up one a few weeks back...

Got the Robinson and 10 others (Doerr, Slaughter and a bunch of SP cards) all for $11. One of the better deals I scored all year IMO

I only collect the round corner ones.






PS. Another Bond Robinson (round corner) sold for $32 a couple days ago, so they are out there.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-HOF-1947-Homogenized-Bond_W0QQitemZ310033264537

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

This is the same type of confusion that exists with several rookie cards out there. It really depends on which camp you are in. Can a rookie card include: A) minor league cards; B) regionally distributed cards; C) Exhibit cards; plus I am sure that there are more.

I think that the Leaf was teh first nationally distributed card, but certainly not his first overall.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BARRY

Sorry old buddy, but I have to disagree with you. While the 1947 Bond Bread was not a coast-to-coast issue, these cards were
found in Bond Bread loaves as far west as St. Louis.
When I collected them as a kid, they were certainly in Bread loaves in New Jersey.

MATT

The 1949 Leaf's (1st series of 49 cards) were available about this time of the year in 1949.

The 1949 Bowman's (1st series of 72 cards) came out in May of 1949. I collected all these cards, and I remember this very well.

TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

Ted - Robinson's Leaf card was #79 - so the first series being already available wouldn't matter.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

What does #79 have to do with it. The 1st series of the 1949 Leaf set is skip-numbered to #159.

Please read my article on this set in the Old Cardboard magazine (Issue #9).

TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

That explains it - when you said "(1st series of 49 cards)" I assumed sequential.

Do we make such distinctions with regard to rookie cards that since one set was distributed 2 months before the other, that is the rookie and the other is not? Years later, in the 80s I don't recall the market caring about whether Topps, Donruss or Fleer came out two weeks before the other and therefore only 1 was the real rc.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm not into the....."Rookie card syndrome"....and, I agree that Leaf preceding Bowman by a couple of months is no big deal.
However, there are many in this hobby that take this "rookie" stuff very serious.

In any event, my initial response to this Thread was to simply point out that there were BB card issues in the marketplace
prior to the Leaf's and Bowman's that must be considered.
Furthermore, we have to also consider the 1947 Tip Top Bread set. There are many "1st cards" of post-WWII BB players in it.

TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

Agreed that there are other issues that pre-date (by a season+) his Leaf and Bowman issues.

I still contend that both the Leaf and Bowman should both be considered as his rookies (using the "major release" criterion). Precedence by a few weeks or months does not seem to be a recognized differentiator between issues.

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Posted By: fkw

I dont believe in the regional issues cant be a rookie theory...

With that theory..... the 1975 Topps Mini Brett and Yount are not rookies either.
They are regional, only being issued in NorCal and Michigan.

Also what about a 1917 E135 Collins McCarthy Hornsby or Heilmann? Or 1917 D350-2 Standard Biscuit. They are both from NorCal....... regional issues.

Throw in 1917 Boston Store too, also regional.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- I was referring to the 11-card Jackie Robinson set that was issued by Bond Bread. Wasn't that set distributed in Brooklyn only?

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Here's one from the 11 card Bond Bread set..............

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Phil. That was the set I meant. Those cards are pretty tough to find.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

There are actually 13 cards in the 1947 Robinson Bond Bread set and some are impossible to come by. I am one shy of completing the set which I have been working on for well over a decade.

Greg

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson set (13 cards) is an off-shoot of the 48 card Homogenized Bond Bread issue that I
mentioned above. Both issues are identical in card size and appear to be from the same printing firm. Was it distributed
in Brooklyn only ?
This, I cannot confirm....although, we never saw them in our neighborhood (NJ) stores in 1947.

As I said, I'm not into the "rookie" fad; however, 1947 was an historic year with Jackie breaking into the Majors. Therefore,
if any BB card collectors want Jackie's Rookie card, then any one of these 1947 Bond Bread cards are the real Rookies.

Of course, I'm quite biased about 1947, as it was the very 1st year I collected BB cards. Furthermore, the 1947 World Series
(Yankees 4 - Dodgers 3) was one of the greatest....it really made me a Baseball fan for life, at a very impressionable age of 9.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Thanks to the memories of Ted Z and Peter Thomas, who collected these cards in 1949, we know that the Leafs were not distributed in 1948 and that those copyright dates on some refer to the copyright dates of the photos. Given that they were released in 1949, I would argue that if one does not want to consider regional issues, that either the Bowman or Leaf ought to be considered to be his rookie. I don't think a slightly earlier release date in the same year/same season is significant.
JimB

Jeff,
Awesome Robinson!
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- my recollection is the 13 card set was distributed primarily in African American neighborhoods in Brooklyn, as Jackie became an instant icon. In the 1980's I bought an original hoard from a Brooklyn family, about 8-10 cards, and all but one was the same pose. The one that Phil posted above, I believe, is the easiest pose to find.

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Posted By: howard

If I am following the thread correctly there are fourteen 1947 Bond Robinson cards (the thirteen card set and his card from the main set). If we discount both the Leaf and Bowman cards is there one particular Bond card that would be considered Robinson's rookie card above the others?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I will go out on a limb and say the Jackie from this 48 card set is his 1st.

Also shown here is Larry Berra's 1st card.....before he was called "Yogi".



TED Z

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Posted By: barrysloate

Okay, food for thought:

If the 13 card set was indeed a regional issue, distributed in Brooklyn, wouldn't the company have rushed it to market to take advantage of his instant popularity?

He was clearly less popular in other parts of the country, especially in the south and in cities where racism was prevalent, so the national set may not have been released with the same urgency.

Of course this is all speculation.

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Posted By: howard

Sorry if I end up flooding this thread w/questions but I am very intrigued by the Bond sets.

FKW, how did you manage to get those cards for just $11.00? Was it at a flea market? Even the $32.00 a Robinson recently sold for seems like a decent deal to me. Does anyone think that this set is undervalued?

Ted, do you favor the card from the main set because it had a wider distribution or because it came out first? Also, why is there a distiction between round and sharp cornered cards? Are the sharp cornered cards reprints?

Thanks for all the help guys!

Howard

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'd say I favor any of the cards from the regular (48 card) set, simply since they were the very 1st BB cards I collected.

I dug up a Thread I posted on this subject that should answer most of your questions on this 48 card Bond Bread set.
Check it out and if you have more questions, I will gladly try to answer them.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1193364253/D305+Bond+Bread+set++vs+SQUARE+Reprints>

TED Z

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Posted By: Darren

Another from the 1947 BB set as well as a couple of other "rookies"

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Posted By: Darren

I forgot to post the Swell Sports Thrills robby as well dated 1948.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Both the Leaf and the Bowman were printed and distributed in 1949.

So, they are

both

the rookie cards.

If both were printed and distributed in the same year... why would one be considered the rookie and not the other?


Now.... which one is the true rookie - and by true rookie, I mean the

better

rookie card?



I would like to submit the following as evidence (hello Jeff):

Exhibit A

Checking the PSA Pop Reports.... it seems there is a 1949 Bowman that came from the 'Jackie Robinson Estate' - yet there is no Leaf.... I repeat - no Leaf.... (did I mention Jackie Robinson had a Bowman - but no Leaf?)
.
So.... Jackie held it dear.... must have considered it his own rookie card - and that is good enough for me.


Exhibit B

Red is beautiful as noted in the 'I see red people' thread






P.S. I am ignoring Ted's and others evidence of the 1947 Bond Bread cards because that information does not support my argument.

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Posted By: fkw

Howard, the cards were on eBay and no one really bid on them.

I won 2 auctions with a total of 21 cards, I was mistaken the lot with the Robinson was 12 cards for $11.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200204431965
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200204432330

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- that 1949 Bowman Jackie is among my favorite post-war cards...but I do think whichever one was released first should be considered the rookie card. You could call the Leaf rookie A and the Bowman rookie B, but I vote for the Leaf.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

So Barry, what you are saying is that Joe's card is a B? That sucks. Darn.

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Posted By: Joe D.

With all due respect to Barry, Ted, Jeff, and others.....


I am glad that Jackie Robinson himself has answered this question for us -

1949 Bowman - Jackie Robinson Estate

Thank you Jackie.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well they are two of the best post-war cards, and among Jackie's best ( I also like the 1952 Topps Jackie).

Which is also a red card!

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

If a set was distro'd in all of the major league cities at the time and went all the way West to St. Louis, that seems like enough to qualify as national distribution. The '47 H Bond's have a legitimate claim to being rookie cards. Would not the Tip Tops also be in this mix, even though they seem to only include distribution local players in each city?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, two points: first, everyone knows that Jackie was famously color-blind; in fact, when he saw red it was really yellow and vice versa. Second, it's time you sold me your Bowman Robinson.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOE

We don't really know if Jackie Robinson advertently chose his 1949 Bowman card. When the George Moll Agency (that produced
the Bowman cards) signed up the players for the rights to portray them in their sets, they would offer them a few $$ and a stack
of their cards. I heard this straight from George Moll in a conversation with him in 1981. Sorry, to bust your bubble (gum).

Your JRobby was printed on two different backs....white or gray cardboard. Looking at yours, I would say its back is gray ?
And if it is, then your's was printed in the later press runs in the Summer of '49. However, if you have the white version, it was
printed in the initial press runs in the Spring of '49. When I get a chance, I will scan my two Bowman JRobby's and we'll compare.

DAVE

JRobby is not in the 1947 Tip Top Bread set.

TED Z

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Posted By: Joe D.

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Posted By: Joe D.

"We don't really know if Jackie Robinson advertently chose his 1949 Bowman card. When the George Moll Agency (that produced the Bowman cards) signed up the players for the rights to portray them in their sets, they would offer them a few $$ and a stack of their cards. I heard this straight from George Moll in a conversation with him in 1981. Sorry, to bust your bubble (gum)."


Ted - we do know that Jackie Robinson liked the 1949 Bowman enough to keep it until his passing.
It is not how he acquired it that is important. It is that it was part of his estate that
is so telling. Jackie Robinson kept the 1949 Bowman for all of his days on this planet.
So, no bubble bursting for me. I go with Jackie on this one.


edit to say: Jeff - if you ever want to rid yourself of that ugly yellow card -
I would reluctantly take it off of your hands.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It is more important that Jackie thought enough of this card of his to keep it all those years. And, not what we have to say here.

You haven't told me what color cardboard is on the back of your card ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, Joe's card is the grey -- later -- back. It's so late, in fact, that I think the card was made in 1956. In fact, Joe's card may be Jackie's LAST card.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I will go with 'grey' because Jeff says so.
He saw the card in person - and I trust he knows these cards.

It really isn't grey or white in appearance - it is more a cream color or an aged white (like the front border in the scan).


I wanted this card for a while - and
I looked at many many many 1949 Robinson with a critical eye. Sometimes overly critical.

I chose this card (and paid strong on it) - because it has absolutely perfect color registration.
So many times I would see this card with a trail of white on the left side or right side of Jackie's face.
Or the white would appear on the top of Jackie's hat. The red needed to move in one direction or another and was not in fit.
Yet the graders would still give a poor register card a high grade.


This one is spot on perfect registration.

The Leaf cards (in general) are worse than the Bowmans with regard to registration.


I kid with Jeff - but I am sure I will buy the Leaf Jackie Robinson one day as well.
Why not pick up his second best rookie card?
Lets call it #2... just like when my kids go potty and I ask if they need to go #2


(I will say, I like the Leaf Paige better than the Bowman Paige - sot that is next. What a challenge that will be -
to find an in-register Leaf Paige.)

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Posted By: howard

Thanks, Ted. As soon as this hectic weekind is over I look forward to reading your thread.

Howard

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Posted By: Paul S

Well, here's my '49 Bowman raw Robinson with a back the color of cream aged beyond
it's expiration date. Included is his autograph which I got as a kid,
at what was billed as the 1st Martin Luther King East-West All Star Classic,
at Chavez Ravine. After the usher at the top of his aisle refused to let
me down to get it I instead went back to my own aisle, parallel to his,
and cut across a large section, stepping on a few hundred toes along the
way. Once he signed my program he must have anticpated the real answer
I was seeking, because before I could even ask the question he looked
up at me from his seat and in a repeated whisper, uttered,
"Bond Bread...Bond Bread..."




*edited to manually wrap text

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Posted By: Darren

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

"DAVE

JRobby is not in the 1947 Tip Top Bread set."

Quite right, sir. I used to know all of this stuff cold, need to re-read the big book!

Now, would Tip Top in '47 have been considered a "nationally" distro'd set?

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Posted By: shane Leonard

I would like to know the same thing. I have two sets of the tip top bread cards and have been trying to upgrade these things for 4 years. Not many of these cards exist and if they do they range from GD to VGEX. The Spahn card is the most expensive card in the set.

Shane

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Posted By: Steve

The correct answer here is what would Hal have said?


Steve