Ebay Fraud Story

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

An anatomy of a fraud perpetrated by an Ebay Seller
In July 2002 there was a Sporting Life Cabinet card listed on Ebay that interested me. The following is a copy of the description that appeared on that Ebay Auction page.
Description: 1906 W600 Sporting Life Cabinet Arthur Hoffman Chicago N.L. Cabinet photo is clear and bright with no fading or yellowing. Focus & registration are perfect. Centering is perfect, corners are sharp. Light staining left & bottom border. No creases, wrinkles,tack pin holes writing etc. COMES WITH ORIGINAL GLASSINE SHIPPING MATERIAL. Unfortunately the envelope is gone. Solid card. Collectors know how difficult these are to find nice! I have placed a reasonable reserve to protect my investment. Winner to pay $5 for USPS Priority Mail. Insurance is optional based upon final value. I accept Checks, Money Orders, Cashiers' Checks and PayPal. I also accept Visa/MasterCard through PayPal, shipped to confirmed address only. I try to describe all items as accurately as possible. However I am not a professional grader. I use terms generally accepted in the hobby and provide representative scans. Please EMail me if you have any questions, I will respond promptly. Happy bidding!
On Jul-01-02 at 14:21:37 PDT, seller added the following information: Please contact me if you are interested in W600's as I have others including Plank.
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The Ebay auction page in question showed a scan of about 70% of the actual cabinet card size. My best judgement of the image was that the card was in the vg/ex-ex category. Generally I pass on small images for fear that condition problems are being hidden. But highlighted "COMES WITH ORIGINAL GLASSINE SHIPPING MATERIAL" in the description made me believe that the card was clean. All the SLC cards I have ever seen that were still in their original envelope have had pristine photo areas and clean backs - the producer's intention. No back scan of the cards were given.
I contacted the seller Robert Craik (rbcraik@aol.com). He gave me the URL of his web site. I then selected a card to purchase from a list cards on that site.
The initial auctioned card had a reserve. The card had been listed for quite some time and as the seller told me, the high bid at the time was about $100 short of the reserve. I bid the reserve, no one bid higher so I won. Payment was made for the two cards.
A day to remember: I received a large flexible envelope delivered by a USPO mail carrier. I opened the package and found two baseball cabinet cards wrapped in some unfamiliar amber color cellophane (not the original glassine as advertised) between two magazines and two pieces of ripped off cardboard. I could not believe what I saw. The cards showed damage to both fronts and backs. The seller did not disclose this damaged condition.
The fronts of the cards had water stain spots all over the photo (the main focus of any card). These stains blended with the colors of the photo in the scanning process therefore they were not visible on the auction image.
On the backs of the cards, dozens of small pieces of the white paper that is the bonded backing to the cardboard card were hanging off. These grossly shredded backs were obviously due to being ripped off an album page.
I was duped. To avoid any domestic unpleasantness by admitting that I spent $761 on such junk, I immediately took the cards to my work area. I wrapped them in the amber cellophane, packed them in a proper size USPO Priority box. Then I drove to the Post Office, insured and shipped them back to the seller. Emailed the seller that the cards are being returned for a refund.
Due to the ugly water spots on the photo I judged the condition of front of these cards to be "Good" and the backs "Poor". Overall condition Fair to Good at best. This means that in affect, the cards I received were at least three grades lower than I paid for. However, cards in this condition I would not own at any price.
In my response from the seller he suggested that he would reduce the price I paid by $150 if I kept the cards and that normally "My personal policy is no refunds". (Meaning what ever I send you, you must keep - no matter what!)
Without any mention of his 'policies' in the auction description, he arbitrarily decided to deduct an inflated $38.90 Ebay fee, $22.39 Paypal fee, $11.75 shipping cost and a $99.75 restocking fee from my purchase price of $761.75. I expected to be stuck with the shipping cost of this insulting transaction but he kept $184.54 from my refund! A nice living could be made just following this pattern of business conduct.
Dealing with buyers and sellers on Ebay since 1997 and not having any problems I thought this situation would be resolved. It was not to be. On 8-5-02 a complaint against this seller was filed with the Internet Fraud Complaint Center. Their web site states: "The IFCC receives thousands of complaints monthly and does not have the resources to respond to these inquiries. The IFCC reviews every complaint and refers them to law enforcement and regulatory agencies having jurisdiction."
An Ebay Fraud Complaint was registered against the seller on 8-12-02 along with a negative feedback rating. To this complaint the seller stated that I had "buyer's remorse". As a reply to my Ebay Fraud Claim Number 43067 on 10-12-02 Ebay informed me that my claim was denied because of the involvement of the second card.
In the above auction item description the seller writes this self-serving statement: "I try to describe all items as accurately as possible. However I am not a professional grader." Must one be a professional grader to see such conspicuous damage? In addition to being a collector I have been a table holder at the National Sports Collector Convention for 22 years. I've owned and handled many thousands cards. Never encountered such outright deception. This is a case of FRAUD.

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Posted By: JC

Sorry to here about everything you went thru. I normally use my credit card on purchases from people I don't know yet. If there is a problem, and the first e-mail does not correct it, I would just call him up and talk it out. It's pretty hard to figure out who you are dealing with by just reading their words. I think I have delt with this seller, but I can't remember for sure... which is good...

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Posted By: dan mckee

WOW! Jerry, I am very sorry to hear of this misfortune. Though I have been ripped off a few times on ebay, it is usually by low feedback or fake ID's. I happen to know this seller very well and have dealt with him several times without incident. I am shocked to read this turn of events. He receives his ebay fee back from ebay after filing the return though he will lose posting fees. The restocking fee is rediculous in my opinion as well. The shipping I can understand though I return that as well when I have a dissatisfied customer. Again, I am sorry to hear about this and am shocked to hear about it from this seller. Take care, Dan. P.S. could you email me the link to the internet fraud company, I mailed $175 out last year to a bozo that never sent me anything.

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Posted By: RBCraik

There are two sides to every story. There was no fraud. It was a case of buyer's remorse, plain and simple. Mr. Spillman got the cards & decided he did not want them. Without any communication he unilaterally returned them (damaged upon return I might add, the ultimate insult/disrespect). He then insisted I "eat" the Ebay fees. I reminded Mr. Spillman it was an auction not retail and in any event, the situation deteriorated rapidly from there. His tone was shrill, adversarial and somewhat off center. Not enough to cause me upgrade my alarm system at home, but enough that I remember... Again, I will be happy to elaborate if anyone cares. I stand on my record as an honest trader. You can't please everyone.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I do not know either of the people who were involved in this "dispute" so my post is not rendering verdict on the chain of events that transpired in this case. However, I feel that this topic, “eBay Fraud”, is an important one. I have had about 900 transactions on eBay (even though my feedback only reflects about half of those). Granted, 900 is a far cry from some people’s, but I do feel my experience will validate my beliefs. I do feel fraud is rampant on eBay, and I’ve had a few experiences with bad sellers but luckily I have avoided being burned. First and foremost, as already mentioned, always pay with a credit card when possible. I have probably purchased over 20 items in which I made payment and the item was never sent. In all of these cases, I simply called my credit card company, filled out the 3 minute form, and bam – charge was gone. It’s truly that simple and the best protection I have EVER had. Aside from this, I did have one transaction once where I purchased an autograph for a fairly large sum of money. I sent payment via money order. The seller never sent the item and for whatever reason (and I can’t remember why now), I could not stop payment on the money order. I was pretty sure I was going to be out $1000+, so in a last ditch effort, I contacted the Attorney General of the seller’s state. Well, within 3 days, I had received an apology phone call from the seller, a complete refund including the extra .79 cents the money order cost me, and another apology letter with my refund! So, if you do get burned, try this avenue – it worked great for me…

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Posted By: dan mckee

How do I get the email and/or address of the attorney general for a certain state? And what exactly did you write to him/her? thanks dan.

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Posted By: petecld

Dan,

It's easy. Go to www.google.com and do a search for:

"attorney general, (the state you want)"

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

The state for my selelr was California, so I just did a search. I then typed up a letter explaining the situation that occured, sent a copy of my MO, a copy of the auction, and other items. I faxed and used regular mail to make sure they got it. I received a nice response back from a secretary and they did help me a ton!

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

I wish I could relate the name Bob called me via email but I don't think that language is allowed on this forum. However, it was not unexpected.
He must be watching the Sopranos.

Again, there was NO MENTION of damage to the cards in his description or in his response above. That fact is it is never addressed. If the damage to the cards were declared there would have been no bid on my part.

It is an absolute absurdity that anyone could add discretionary penalty charges such as the
restocking fee and rest on a return of any items, even worse on items that were so grossly
misrepresented. What mentality does it take to appoint oneself as judge then to perpetrate this rip-off? With this obvious fraud how could any intelligent person expect that there would be no repercussions?

The returned 'junk cards' were packaged and sent in a USPO Priority Box and insured. The alleged damage would be a claim against the United States Post Office. What have I got to do with the Post Office delivery service? He stated - it was the box that was damaged. Then what is the relevance? Where's disrespect? His irrational arguments continue and are dismissed.

Again he states the naive "BUYER'S REMORSE". To use that simple cliche must be very satisfying to someone with such a lack of imagination and to find some justification for his dishonesty.
Hey, I'll use that - that'll fit - sounds right on - everybody else uses it - that clever phrase
will certainly satisfy anyone has any doubts about the matter - good thinking - not very original but that's the best I can do - that phrase will explain everything - I'm justified - simple - perfect - am I clever or what - that is the answer - Yes!

It’s possible that his judgement may be altered if he knew the number of these cards I have purchased from honest people over the years. Most likely I own more of these cards than any one else.

This seller must be buried in these cards due to his own inabilities and looking for a sucker to help him out. Any takers? Here is your chance. He would love it - he can't lose! He will just take his profit when you return the junk cards he sent.

In the pre-National days I rented dealer tables at the Willow Grove, PA. Card Shows and the White Plains, NY Card Shows. The dealers from those days that are still around today were smart enough to maintain a good reputation.

A hard copy (has a long shelf-life) of this Ebay transaction was due in June but it's going to be a little late.

Isn't this embarrassing? Greed - what a shame!

Thanks for the credit card advice from JC, Dan and Jon.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks guys, hell I should have known that! I search google and yahoo constantly for CICS and XML abends. Yes my stupidity must be a 10 as carew4you stated in another post! Rob and Jerry, any chance of working this out even though it has been awhile? How about a split down the middle? Just a suggestion, I don't like to see 2 decent people fighting. Almost like me and PSA, oh, I said 2 decent people! sorry Joe.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

with both MANY times..........

As a former collector of W600's, I dealt with Jerry many, many times over the last 6-7 years. Always at the National--typically buying something or just talking with him. I don't really believe he would have buyer's remorse on a W600 if it was accurately described. He wrote the book on them. I saw the W600 in question but didn't pay particular attention to it since I'd sold off my collection.

That said, I've also dealt with Bob a number of times. Had to send a T206 back to him which wasn't described correctly, but he refunded my money in whole minus the shipping. That's been probably 3-4 years ago. He also picked up (3) PSA8 Old Judges from me in a good transaction.

Unfortunately, this transaction seems like it was doomed from the start. The restocking fee seems arbitrary unless it was stated as a possibility in the auction. Haven't seen too many ebay sellers do that. Had a problem with Best Buy on a product and they charged a 15% restocking fee.

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Posted By: JC

I've been on both sides of this kind of deal. As a buyer of cards, that I felt was off on the description and thru my mail-order company selling products to customers, that have buyer remorse. I think you can throw all the policies and common sense out the door if you remember the old saying. YOU WILL ALWAYS GET MORE USING SUGAR NOT VINEGAR!

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Posted By: RBCraik

Hey Gerry, I called you an ahole. Not terribly articulate, but accurate in your case. What I should have called you is a liar. To belabor the point, I correctly described the cards WITH scans; you asked me to break EBay rules, end the auction early, sell you the cards directly (at a ridiculously low price I might add) which I did. I can only believe you thought you were taking advantage of me, getting MINT cards at VGEX prices. When they arrived, you realized you got exactly what you paid for so you threw the cards into a priority mail box with no protection and returned them to me without comment. When I got them back, the box was flattened, the cards were damaged, the corner of one of them was sticking through the hole for the pull tab! How much more disrespectful can you be? Then, when I contact you, your head starts spinning around puking green pea soup! No talking to you! Phew! You say you are an expert. Just because you have been around a long time certainly does not make you an expert. As I said, if anyone is interested in the facts, not fabrications, half truths and distortions, please email me.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

After having been exposed, this seller goes on the offense with banal responses - lashes out with name calling, attempts to alter facts to suit a weak argument and adds irrelevant subjective information to divert the focus of the real matter which is FRAUD.
My account says it all. Those bogus fees are criminal.

I have received many comments relating to this situation. I have not been able to reply to all as yet but I would like to thank all of you that have written and for your support.

One unhappy ex-customer of this seller explained how he had to return extremely over-graded baseball cards to this seller. He received the self-serving “not a professional grader” excuse. Others wrote to express their outrage at Ebay for not pursuing the problem even though a second card was involved or their experiences with other crooked Ebay sellers. Still others say they are reluctant to buy raw cards because of the deceptive practices of crooked sellers similar to the one in my case.

Some of the silent majority out there may still comment and/or take direct action against this dishonest seller. You may become a victim.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Any chance a "TBob" or "Leon" mediator you both agree to would be useful to arbitrate? I do not know you Jerry but I do know Bob and he is an honesat capitalist and collector.
I mean it it. A three way conference call with no colorful vocab and maybe our own ambassador Leon could decide what is fair to whom? That would make this board have more value to our community of Vintage collectors!

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Posted By: leon

I guess I could moderate....heck, if I can moderate between you (BCD) and the others, then this should be a gimmee.....It actually sounds like there was just some miscommunication, possibly on both sides. I also have a "no-returns" policy, unless there is a material mistake. I also show 1.5x scans of fronts AND backs......I agree with Bob that these are auctions and not retail, so the "no-returns" policy, but as some folks could testify, if I made a mistake I will take care of it......I think Tbob, being the public defendant that he is, is more quailified though....best regards.......btw, if I do arbitrate should it be "binding"?

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Posted By: jay behrens

leon, I'll provide some rope and cuffs for proper binding, if you like :-p

Jay

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Posted By: TBob

"Bob being the public defendant he is..."
Leon- Freudian slip?
I think you meant public defender.

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Posted By: julie

but someone else, dealing with Mr. Craik, received a large card, placed between the pages of a magazine, with the magazine placed inside a completely flexible envelope. The mailman naturally folded the envelope and put it in the mailbox, further damaging a (admittedly already poor-and ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE POOR--conditioned) card. The card, as presented in the ebay auction, was just barely collectible; after the mailing, it wasn't. Craik declined to take the card back, return money--or even acknowledge e-mails.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Bob is one of the nicest and friendliest dealers I have come across. I have had many transactions with him although most where in persons, but never the less, he has been very easy to deal with and always has time to shoot the breeze. The only thing I don't get is why there was a restocking fee, that sounds a little much, but if I had someone return my cards in worse shape than I sent them I would charge them too, but I think the buyer should be told why. I hope this situation is made right by both parties, but in my book Bob is a stand up guy, and I would buy from him anytime.
Trevor (snider4prez)

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Posted By: leon

I meant "defender" not "defendant"....Bob would be the public defender and his clients are the defendants....I am smart, I am smart, s m r t, ( Homer Simpson) ......later

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jerry,

I, too, had a similar experience with this seller.

About 4 years ago I bid on and won a great looking e91-A Rube Waddell on ebay. These are ugly cards, but this was a particularly nice-looking example. Waddell is one player I am trying to get one of every known card or premium of. I needed the card and so I won it.

What I received looked NOTHING like the "scan" that was listed in the ebay description. It was described as EX-MT to NR-MT, by the way. There were very rounded and fraying corners, chipping to the border, it looked VG at the very best. I immediately got online to look at the ebay auction again to compare the scan to the card, but the scan had already been removed.

I e-mailed the seller and told him the card looked nothing like the scan and asked if he could please e-mail me the original scan of the card. He replied that he had already deleted it from his computer. Hmmmmm. It was obvious to me that he had touched up the scan before posting the card on ebay and I accused him of doing exactly that. He denied it, but then, exactly as he did with you, offered me a small amount of money to make up for the discrepancy.

Later on I decided to get some of my Waddell cards graded. This card currently resides in an SGC 30 holder.

I guess my point is, I believe your story.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Cy

I've had two experiences with Mr. Craik. I bought an E95 Wagner that looked VG on his website. So I agreed to buy it and paid a VG price for it. If I sent this card to be graded, it wouldn't have a prayer at getting a PSA 2, not a chance.

I mentioned this to him and he said he didn't take returns but he would give me a refund to make things right. It wasn't a refund that would bring the cost down to a Poor grade Wagner. It was very minor.

Then I won a graded card on ebay from him that was stated to have no marks, a clean front. It turned out that there was a pencil marking on the card. It was totally unnoticeable on the scan. I contacted him and his E-mail wasn't friendly and he stated that the auction said no returns on graded cards. But I insisted. I told him that he stated that there were no marks so he misrepresented the card. And just like in this case, he deducted the ebay fees and the shipping cost from my refund.

But it isn't over. Then he placed the card back on ebay. I know that he could have had his ebay fees returned from ebay because our transaction didn't finish. I am not sure that he did this but he's a sharp business man. You figure. If he did, he was double-dipping in that fee.

The next week after he received the card back from me, he placed it on ebay with the same scan that didn't show the mark, same statement that there were no marks. The card sold.

Jerry, I believe you 100%.

Cy

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Posted By: BCDaniels

lol~

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Posted By: BcDaniels

I do not have issues of card deals gone a rye with people pal,just personality differences.This is a piece of cake for you because you are the Rodney King of this board! I do not have issues of cards ( except for when we argue over if someone knew this is trimmed or altered or if some well known dealer has knowledge of his bunk card et...) otherwise,the above mentioned collectors should and could easily work it out. Looks to me like some folks even stated that Bob is reasonable and has done so before. Write them bristle head and get it cleared up as you admit you can! lol*

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I think this whole thing is a prime example of taking care of your customers and accurately describing your auction. Bob seems to have some backing, but there is enough examples in the thread from people I have a good history with to tarnish Bob's standing in my eyes. And it all comes down to what? A couple hundred bucks for the bad rep you know have. Too me there are plenty of sellers out there that will treat me right and I don't need to bid or buy from questionable ones.

Once again this just shows how good this forum is. I do not come up with a judgement on a person off of just one situation. You never know what can tick people off, but in this case there sure seems to be more than one occasion of shady business practices.

I like to think that I am not a chump, but if I am and taken advantage of, I will let it be known on this board as I have in the past.

I'm done ranting. I encourage others to come forward if you have had bed dealings such as these, I for one want to know who might be ttrouble out there.

Lee

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Posted By: quan

I've also dealt with Bob, and it was less than stellar. Card was overgraded , communication was lacking, and the card took a month to arrive even though the transaction was done through paypal. To be fair the price I paid was right for the condition so I didn't make a big fuss about it...but even before this thread I've made up my mind to stay away from his future auctions.

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Posted By: MW

My experiences with Bob have always been quite pleasant. The cards were received in a short period of time and, if anything, they were slightly undergraded. I'm sure there are many others who also have a favorable opinion after transacting business with him. For those who didn't have positive experiences, however, I'm sorry things didn't work out.

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Posted By: dan mckee

WOW! These posts are amazing! I truely had no position on this a day ago as I had no way of knowing the exact facts. But I must say the tide is turning to one particular side. The main thing I notice that seems consistant is the "No return". I know Leon believes in this method but I believe that no one should be an unhappy customer. I accept returns on all of my online sales. Now 1 bad thing with this is that I have had cards switched out on me by a very reputable dealer once! I called him on it, he admitted it and made things right though I think he got me for alot on an earlier transaction.

Only twice can I think of having problems with returns: once a gentleman took 2 days looking a card over at a show, came back and bought it, then returned it the next day, I think he just over spent himself, so I reluctently took it back. 2nd time was a yahoo auction, I sold a T205 with SEVERE back damage. The winner submitted it to PSA and it was returned trimmed, The winner contacted me 6 weeks after auctions end and wanted a refund. This I denied. The card was not trimmed, the time elapsed was rediculous and who would trim a card with the back ripped off? Sorry, may have been too long here, Dan.


I do not like the restocking fee here either, if the items were returned damaged, then communication and a mutual agreement should have been made. If that was attempted and failed, then I guess the restocking fee was the only option.

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Posted By: BcD

wouldn't most get this kind if response? It's YMMV out there. You can even do multiple deals with someone in which some are great others are not. Bob is no different than anyone else in this respect. The problem is about the original post and Bob and hopefully working that one out.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I always download the auction scan of any item I am bidding on so that I can compare them if there is any question later.

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Posted By: CALLMEBB

Please identify yourself if you wish to make posts with opinions in them.

Elliot

Elliot

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Posted By: CALLMEBB

My name is Robert J. Dahl. My verified eBay user ID is CALLMEBB. Please repost my comment. Thanks.

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Posted By: Jery Spillman

duplicate post

Elliot

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Thank you, it is very kind of you people to help seek a solution to my situation.

I reported this unfortunate story to allow the readers to draw their own conclusions on the character of the seller. The personality of this seller was not mentioned directly.

The front of the SLC card that was offered in auction had multiple water spot stains on the photo portion of the card. This is undoubtedly the main focus of any baseball card. The card is scanned. The scan is about 70% of the size of the actual card. The stains have blended with the colors of the photo in the scan. They are not seen on the scan!! Why mention the fact that there stains when they are not seen in the scan?
The back of the card was grossly shredded due to being ripped off an album page. This was not shown or mentioned deliberately! Not to mention these obvious flaws and set a high reserve will allude to the fact that it is a quality item. This definitely maximizes profit because these cards have very little value in the real condition they are in. The seller says the condition grades vg-ex which would be fair without the damage. I say fair-good because of the damage.
Without prior warning the seller states that he has a "no return policy". Meaning what ever he sends you must keep. This is too good to be true for any business. Selling items four to five times more than they are worth. What a great way to make a living.

The inflated fees that were withheld from my refund also are bogus! Can there be an advocate for a person that commits these deceitful acts?
This is my complaint. I’m writing about this criminal act not any other. Whether there were other positive or negative transactions by other people with this seller in irrelevant. This case stands alone. This is a completely dishonest transaction. This is stealing money by fraudulent means. This involves a FRAUD. This is not a popularity contest.

Julie: Could the USPO cause the damage I described? I don't understand how your interpretation of the damage could possibility be drawn from reading my report. Again, the delivered package had 2 cards, paper, 2 magazines and 2 pieces of supporting cardboard. No mail damage - none. There was no creases on the cards, no evidence of being mishandled at all. The package was delivered to my door and signed for, not put in a mailbox. How can your entire hypothesis be created without a foundation? If that were the fact the USPO would have been responsible. Same situation applies on the return. Sent in US Priority box insured. USPO responsible, no claims were made because there was no damage to the contents.

Trevor: Glad you have a chatting pal and do in-person dealing. His mother also may like him. But to read my story and see how this transaction evolved is what matters. Can you imagine yourself in my position? Are you a fair juror?

Tom B & Brain W: Thanks for your interest also. Who would be stupid enough to try to scam either of you two high profile gentlemen?

I’ve set up at almost every NSCC since we started in 1980. In the earlier decade I dealt in cards and coins as stated previously. I’ve dealt with thousands of hobby collectors and dealers. Aside from the hobby I can say my 10 - 12 grade students were not always easy.
So who cares you may ask.
Well because it gives some basis for my opinion of the personality of this seller that was not included in the factual report.
Other than complete lack integrity he is the most arrogant and irrational person I have ever dealt with. If I posted the email correspondence that he wrote these traits would be evident. In the last email he made a pronouncement, which sealed my financial fate, he ordering me not to write to him again because he will not answer.

This bully was advised long in advance that this fraud would not be dismissed. He chose to ignore the suggestion to settle.

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Posted By: Jeff O

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread... but oh well, here it goes.

First let me say that to the best of my knowledge I have never had any dealings with either of the two parties involved in this dispute.

Jerry, if the scenario as you describe it is true, and I have no reason to believe that it is not, I completely agree that you were the victim of a material misrepresentation (insurance talk for "fraud"). I also find the "restocking" fee that you were charged a complete and total joke, as it is way out of line.

That being said, why the animosity towards Julie and Trevor in your last post? You go after Julie for creating some kind of "hypothesis"... I re-read her posting a dozen times. All that I get out of it is that she is relating a story similar to yours told to her by someone else who dealt with the same seller. I don't think that she is in any way disputing your description of the events - if anything her post confirms what you are alleging.

And as for your comments toward Trevor... all he did was relate his experiences with the same seller. Because he had positive experience while you did not, you ask how he can be a "fair juror"? How can he be any more or less fair than anyone else who has posted on this thread? He simply stated his personal experience... assuming he is telling the truth, and I assume that he is, what's wrong with that?

Anyway... just my two cents worth. I hate to see people discredited for no reason.

Jeff

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Posted By: CALLMEBB

As stated in my now deleted post, I visit this site often but, until now, have never contributed. I guess newcomers are not particularly welcome given the deletion, even with my eBay ID. To synopsize, what I had to say was this. I have dealt with Mr. Craik for many years, transactions large and small. Buy and sell. I have found him to be honest and ethical without fail. He has always represented himself and his items accurately. I will continue to interact with Mr. Craik and would advocate others to do so. Thank you.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Jerry---It seems to me that the opinions that people express in this thread relating to their experience with Craik are very relevant. This is not a trial, relating to your particular case, where the board is your jury. You have recounted your dealing with Craik in an attempt to influence the board's thinking about him. Getting other people to relate their experiences with Craik allows board members to make more informed judgements as to his character. I also agree with Jeff that there is no reason to attack Julie or anyone else on the board who express their opinions.

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Posted By: Elliot

Just so any newcomers are not discouraged from posting, let me clearly state that they are most welcome, in fact, encouraged to post. However anonymous posters that wish to state opinions will have their posts deleted.
Now, in this specific case, I did not save the original post when it was deleted, so even if I had wanted to, I would not have been able to repost it.
But, if I had it, I would not have reposted it for the following reasons:

1) Mr. Dahl (???) has been a member of ebay for the past 6 years, with a total of 22 feedbacks, and none given by him. One transactions in the past 3 years. Does this sound like an active sportscard collector who would read our board? Two of his 22 feedbacks were from rbcraik@aol.com.

2)When Mr. Dahl (??) first signed up for ebay he used a name that was xxxxx@aol.com and only later changed it to callmebb. Is it only a coincidence that rbcraik also uses the same ISP. Also, why change your name in April 2003, when you haven't used ebay in years. Sounds strange.

3) Tracing the IP #, from the original post, leads us to a business that is located less than one mile away from RBCraik's home address in La Quinta, California.


Could all of these things be coincidences? Absolutely, so I remain willing to be corrected. In the meantime, though, I would take the comments of Mr. Dahl to be suspicious.

Let me reiterate that new posters are welcomed, and should feel no hesitation in posting.


Elliot

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Let the man speak his mind. I don't care if it turns out the poster is really Mr. Craik's mom-- the folks on this board can form their own opinions on credibility. It seems somewhat chilling to say that new posters are welcome and should not hesitate, when you've just impugned a new poster's motives and essentially even challenged his identity. He should not be placed in a position of "explaining" your cited coincidences.

Keep up the good work on deleting anonymous posts. Your work in this forum has been fabulous and I'm sure will continue to be, but please don't censor what you suspect to be dubious opinions.

[Archive]

Posted By: RBCraik

Elliot,
Bob Dahl is indeed a very "real" person. His primary residence is in Incline Village Nevada and he keeps a home here in La Quinta, California at PGA West, "about a mile from my home." He is an acquaintance, business associate and fellow collector. I have known him for many years. I asked him to say a word for me and he did. He dumped AOL & changed to another provider about a month ago thus the removal of @AOL.COM from his EBAY user ID. If you would like his telephone number I will be give it to you but not here. ANYTHING ELSE? As stated above, your insinuation is the final straw for me. Goodbye and I wish you well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

Todd--There is a difference between new posters and sham posters. Elliot was simply trying to avoid the latter and I commend him for that. Elliot went further and demonstrated his reasons for believing that the post didn't pass the smell test. That was research that I couldn't have done and I appreciate his doing it.

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Posted By: runscott

Try to learn from it and move on. From what I can gather from this thread, most people make choices based on their own personal experiences with a buyer, not what others say.

I also think that if you are dealing with someone you know, or you recognize their name from the board, you are more likely to be able to resolve disputes in a friendly manner and continue working deals together. But if you are strangers there is a much better chance that you will rub one another the wrong way and escalate things.

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

Bob,

I encourage you to stay. As I wrote above, I have always had pleasant experiences doing business with you and I would NOT HESITATE to purchase more vintage material from you in the future. In fact, I would trust your opinion about many vintage cards more than I would trust the opinions of many so-called hobby "experts." That being said, I'm not trying to make a judgment about this particular situation because I just don't know enough about it.

Also, please keep in mind that there are some in the hobby who have attempted (and still attempt) to paint a MUCH WORSE picture of me than anyone here has painted of you. If anything, that has made me MORE aware of customers and encouraged me to work EVEN HARDER to satisfy those who choose to do business with me. Just like there will always be that PSA customer who becomes upset with me if I want "full SMR" for a well-centered 1954 Bowman Mickey Mantle because I'm hesitant to break a complete 1954 Bowman Baseball Set (true story), I'm sure that there will always be some who will question how you grade cards. But that's the nature of this hobby. Two different hobbyists might look at the exact same situation, yet come to completely different conclusions about what transpired.

I encourage you to stay, Bob. I've always appreciated your great sense of humor and I believe that you have much to contribute.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Thank you Jeff and Jay I totally agree.

When I reread my reply to Julie I realize it was not appropriate. I
read her post in haste and misinterpreted her meaning as to compare my
complaint of card damage may be mailbox related which then was accepted
by Trevor as real. I acted without rereading to make sure of the
meaning of the message. I was not thorough. Not right - no excuse.
Moreover, I was not even appreciative that she came forward with a
similar incident by the same seller.
Julie, I am sorry if I offended you in anyway. Thanks very much for
your post. And thanks to these two gentlemen for bringing my attention
to my error and I am able to apologize to you directly.
Trevor, I did my best to explain the exact nature of the damage to the
cards I received from this seller. This damage is inconsistent with
damage caused during delivery. When you stated - but if I had someone return
my cards in worse shape than I sent them I would charge them too - I
thought you may have miss read my post. The 'juror' was not meant in
any an official way any more than if I said judge and mean a Judge.
Thanks for you opinion.

Justice wears a mask.

Coming on to this thread I noticed the seller in question here had
called an associate to add a positive post for him!! It was not posted
for some reason so he is saying 'goodbye' to the board.

Calling people to vote!
Going to quit the game because his acquaintance allegedly can't play.
This is the Final Straw?
Is that the reason?
Is that similar to Buyer’s Remorse?
Is he any less guilty of fraud if more people vote for him?
This is not a contest.
This is a criminal act.
A refund is in order.

[Archive]

Posted By: CALLMEBB

Moderator my email address is Bobdahl@sbcglobal.net. Contact me if you wish.

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Jerry,
I'm glad you found it in yourself to apologize. The one thing I don't understand is when I look at Bob's feedback I don't see any negative feedback for sometime. All I see is positive transactions from reputable buyers and most auctions are for vintage baseball card items. See if he's this big crook that everyone's making him out to be then where's the proof.
As for putting myself in your shoes, there would be a few questions I would need answered first, how long did it take you to return the item? How did you package the item that you returned? I do agree that the restocking fee is absurd, as I stated in my previous post, but the key question is how did you return the item. Now, no matter how you answer these question there all going to be hear say, and your creditable is dwindling in my eyes as I have dealt with Bob many times and all have been excellent. Then when it comes to you the first time I state an "opinion" you attack me and the backbone to our hobby which is "chatting pals". After all this is a hobby that was started from people who wanted to chat about baseball, not MONEY. I really hope my son doesn't like baseball cards because by the time he's old enough people are just going to be trading credit card numbers. I'm not try to give you a dissertation on the baseball card hobby, I'm just trying to help you remember that things can be handled in a kinder fashion. As Bob's mom would say " You get sweeter lemonade with sugar not vinegar."
Trevor Hocking (snider4prez)

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Posted By: jay behrens

Trevor, a huge reason don't see many negs on anyone's account is that almost everyone is afraid to post negative feedback becuase they might get one in return. People have even stated this on the board. The feedback system will give you some measure of how good the seller is, but not the true picture since most people will not leave negs, or even neutrals, thus the feedback system is broken.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

I emailed you Robert.....with my phone number....about 3 hours ago...here I am ready to dive in....I am fairly easy to find too as my work ph# is on my about me page on ebay.....not trying to hide too much....(no crank calls please)....regards all

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

that I'd stay out of this debate, since I've known Bob for a long time and have never had anything but solid dealings with him. But I can't resist sticking my two cents in; here goes, in no particular order:

I am very surprised at the number of dissatisfactory deals Bob has been involved with, esp. with posters on this board. Had I not known him all this time, I would never deal with him based on what I read.

I am not surprised that there is no negative feedback. That system mandates that you take hits for negative feedbacks you leave, which can be especially painful if you sell items infrequently. I am seriously considering using a new account to bid on stuff, just so I can fire away at will on bad sellers.

Packing: Jerry says that Bob mispackaged the cards. I did not see (perhaps I missed it) any reference to packaging damage being the source of the problem. If the packaging did not cause the damage, which I understand to be back damage, it is a red herring and irrelevant. End of story.

Restocking Fee: Charging a restocking fee is wrong unless it states there is a restocking fee in the listing. No excuse there, Bob. If you believed that the buyer damaged the cards on the return and wanted to make him pay for it, be man enough to say so and not hide behind a restocking fee (besides, putting a card back in the safe ain't the same as forklifting a pallet of pipes back into the warehouse.

The crux of this matter appears to be a dispute between the parties over the return. Bob believes that the cards were damaged by the buyer; the buyer believes that Bob misleadingly omitted back damage from the listing in question. Since neither one has come across with scans of the card in question, we have an unanswerable question.

Finally, and don't anyone take this the wrong way (Bob), but being "Kartmann" from South Park ("Screw you guys, I'm going home!") doesn't help anyone, and I hope that no one reacts as immaturely in the future to some honest criticism. We all mess up from time to time; the absolute most irritating thing in the world from a seller and a buyer perspective is not getting what you paid for or booking a sale that comes back, especially where the "hobby" is concerned. What we don't need to do is stop talking.

I'd urge everyone to take this as a cautionary tale and to learn from it--when dealing with high end stuff, take a few extra moments and scan it, then save the scans until you are reasonably sure that the deal is done.