Who would you want on the mound T206 era in clutch game?

[CMIZ5290]

Mathewson, Johnson, Cy Young, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh, Addie Joss, or Jack Cesbro? Please feel free to submit another choice....This is for a game that has to be won....

[Bigb13]

I would go with Cy Young

[Peter_Spaeth]

Johnson. No question.

[CMIZ5290]

My answer a couple of years ago would have been Matty. But after a lot of research, W. Johnson without a doubt....

[goudey1933]

Matty...

[Sean]

Walter Johnson.

Second choice: Mordecai Brown.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

My answer a couple of years ago would have been Matty. But after a lot of research, W. Johnson without a doubt....

I can't find it but I saw a fascinating analysis of what their numbers would have looked like had Johnson been on the Giant teams and Matty on the Senators. By that analysis Johnson was much much better.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't find it but I saw a fascinating analysis of what their numbers would have looked like had Johnson been on the Giant teams and Matty on the Senators. By that analysis Johnson was much much better.

Peter- I would love to see that. Most all of the old time experts that I have spoke with has said he was the greatest of all time....

[pherbener]

My heart says Matty but my head says WaJo. I'm also gonna give a shout out to Smokey Joe Wood.

[rats60]

For one game, Big Six. For a season or career, Big Train.

[ullmandds]

gotta go with the heat! WAJO!

[CrackaJackKid]

Wajo!!!

[dealme]

I'll take Matty

[FourStrikes]

Sidd Finch - 'cuz NOBODY woulda touched his 168 MPH pitch.

.

[T206Collector]

Matty

1905 WS

No question

[T206Jim]

Take it from a HOF manager of the period. "I just used Albert - the greatest money pitcher of all time, I'd tell Albert when I planned to use him in a crucial series, then I relaxed, he never let me down." said Connie Mack of Charles Albert Bender.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by T206Jim

Take it from a HOF manager of the period. "I just used Albert - the greatest money pitcher of all time, I'd tell Albert when I planned to use him in a crucial series, then I relaxed, he never let me down." said Connie Mack of Charles Albert Bender.

Jim, great pitcher, but I know you're kidding....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Peter- I would love to see that. Most all of the old time experts that I have spoke with has said he was the greatest of all time....

They did something like give Matty Johnson's run support and vice versa and Matty ended up with 50 or 75 fewer wins and Johnson that many more, close to 500.

[GregMitch34]

Matty in brown cap, but if in white cap then Johnson.

[irishdenny]

BiG SiX & BiG Ed,
Wit Both of'em iN Their Prime...

oN the DaY of the BiG Game,
I'd FLiP a CoiN...

Johnston MiGHT of BeeN a Bettar Regular Season Pitcher...
Howevar, The "BiG's" Play'd & Show'd More Dominance iN the Spot LiGHT!!!
Both Gentleman Had ERA's South of One...

You Can Choose the CoIN

[Kenny Cole]

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jim, great pitcher, but I know you're kidding....

No, he isn't, Mack did say that.

[T206Jim]

Kevin, for the scenario you described check out the 1905, and 1910-1912 World Series. You'd be hard pressed to do better than either Matty or the Chief during that era.

[CMIZ5290]

No, I know Mack loved Bender and said that. I wonder if he would have bypassed Bender for Walter Johnson. He was a great baseball man, and my hunch says yes....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

You need to win one game, and you tap Orval Overall and not Walter Johnson? Uh, ok. You cannot possibly have a big enough sample to make that judgment about Overall, IMO.

[Kenny Cole]

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Based on what I've read, it would be Matty, Babe Adams and Orval Overall in that order. I have read in several books that Mack always went to Bender in big games, so I imagine he has to be in the mix as well.

Babe Adams? Overall? I know you're kidding Kenny....Overall 108-71 career record

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Babe Adams? Overall? I know you're kidding Kenny....

Cole has no sense of humor, just a sense of being a great contrarian.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

See Clayton Kershaw. Great pitcher? Yes. Great post season pitcher? Not in my book. He seems to routinely get his ass torn off.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a pretty fair inference based on his being, easily, the best and most dominating pitcher ever.

Yep, have to agree....

[BBB]

3 fingers brown and matty were the win leaders out of that group in 1909 FWIW

Johnson went to the next level in 1910. Some of the others were already tailing out their career by the time T206 hit the shelves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cat]

It would be interesting to know what folks in 1911 or 1912 would have said.

In 1910 Jack Coombs lead the majors with 31 wins and went 3-0 in the World Series win for the Philly A's. He beat Mordecai Brown twice in the WS.

In 1911 he again lead the majors in wins (tied with Alexander with 28) and went 1-0 in their WS win, beating Christy Mathewson.

[the 'stache]

Walter Johnson, not a doubt in my mind. Second, Christy Mathewson.

Both were fantastic pitchers. You'll get no argument from me that both could dominate, and if I couldn't have The Big Train pitch that game, I'd feel completely comfortable putting Matty on the mound.

Just to throw this out there for discussion purposes:

Christy Mathewson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1908, 11.1
1903, 9.9
1909, 9.2
1905, 9.1
1901, 9.1
1907, 7.6

Walter Johnson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1913, 14.6
1912, 13.5
1914, 11.9
1910, 11.2
1915, 11.2
1919, 10.5
1918, 10.2
1916, 9.7

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

See Clayton Kershaw. Great pitcher? Yes. Great post season pitcher? Not in my book. He seems to routinely get his ass torn off.

Yep, one highly unusual example.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep, one highly unusual example.

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

[darwinbulldog]

Johnson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

Name one other pitcher with anywhere close to a Kershaw-like disparity between regular and post season. I certainly did not mean to suggest he was a unique example merely by virtue of being "worse" post-season.

[sebie43]

George Mullin. Just kidding, But for one single game. Ed Walsh, spit everywhere

Sent from my LGL62VL using Tapatalk

[glynparson]

The big train

[Bpm0014]

Big Ed Walsh

[Baseball Rarities]

Definitely Johnson with Mathewson and Alexander a fairly distant second and third.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not true. There is a large percentage of great pitchers who were worse in the postseason. You can't just assume that Johnson would have excelled on the big stage. Matty, we know did with a .97 era and 4 shutouts in 11 games.

As far as who people at the time would have picked. The closest we have is the first hall of fame vote. Matty recieved more votes than Wajo. I believe that the reason was Matty's postseason performance.

Greg Maddox is another post season example of underperformer.

As for HOF votes, maybe playing in New York nuanced the vote?

[Yoda]

Perhaps a vote for 'Ole Pete', G. C. Alexander. He certainly had one famous performance (reputedly with the world's worst hangover) against the Yankees and their famous Murderers' Row.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

They were all great but I would go with Johnson, he won with some poor teams. Most of the others performed with some great lineups behind them each year.

Alexander is another solid choice. I love Matty too. If you ever have the chance to see Eddie Frierson perform his one man show on Matty please do so! It is outstanding.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I think the problem with nominating WaJo is that his post-season didn't come until late in his career and, while it was good, it wasn't great. And the post-season is pretty well where it is in terms of being clutch. Doesn't matter if you win 30 and finish 30 behind IMO. I imagine he probably would have been great if he had been in the post-season earlier, but he wasn't, so his clutch greatness in that arena simply isn't demonstrable. The fact that the other guys were is.

Johnson's world series games, in his 18th and 19th seasons:
1924, game 1: Loses 4-3 in 12 innings, 165 pitches, only runs in regulation are two home runs into temporary bleachers in left field, otherwise a shutout win.
1924, game 5: Loses 6-2, 13 hits, behind 3-2 into last inning.
1924, game 7: With one day's rest, comes in to a 3-3 tie in the 9th, holds the powerful Giants (8 HOF hitters) scoreless for four innings, possibly the great "clutch" pitching performance of all time.
1925, game 1: 4-1 win, 5 hits over Pirates team with .316 season BA.
1925, game 4: 4-0 win, 6 hit shutout.
1925, game 7: Loses 9-7, 15 hits, 5 Pirate runs in last two innings of famous "rain game," possibly the worst conditions any major league game has ever been played in.
A mixed bag, as has been said, but not even close to showing that he wasn't a "clutch" pitcher. What would he have done in the world series in his dominant decade of 1910-1919?

[Wite3]

I would probably take Johnson if the game is on the line...a close second and third would be Grove and Alexander.

[brian1961]

Big Ed Walsh.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Walter Johnson, not a doubt in my mind. Second, Christy Mathewson.

Both were fantastic pitchers. You'll get no argument from me that both could dominate, and if I couldn't have The Big Train pitch that game, I'd feel completely comfortable putting Matty on the mound.

Just to throw this out there for discussion purposes:

Christy Mathewson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1908, 11.1
1903, 9.9
1909, 9.2
1905, 9.1
1901, 9.1
1907, 7.6

Walter Johnson's highest single-season WAR totals:

1913, 14.6
1912, 13.5
1914, 11.9
1910, 11.2
1915, 11.2
1919, 10.5
1918, 10.2
1916, 9.7

Hey There Billy!

I've Always Lov'd Your Outlook...
Your Due Diligence is tuf ta Ignore!

As I mention'd earlier...
Mr. Johnston's Regular Season Performance's were Impeccable!
Howevar, Even Though His Post Season Efforts were Later in his Career,
They "Were WHaT THeY Were!"
And His Season WAR was As Grand As EVaR!!!

WaJo Kinda Reminds me Somewhat of Peyton Manning...
They BoTH were Regular Season Menace's! Post Season Howevar? ~
And as Mention'd by Another Board Member,
Mr. Johnston GiveN uP "2 Bleacher Seat" Home Runs in a Post Season Game,
Shouldn't be Just Written off Because of the Need ta Add Seats!

At the Moment I'm Curious ta What Was Mr. Johnston's Post Season WAR was?
I do Know His ERA was like 2.2x

Ohh, I'm Sure You Notic'd my Long WithstandiN Avatar...
Matty & Wajo (Along wit BiG Ed Walsh!),
Have Always Been My Favorite's!!!

These Awesome Discussion's Are What Our Board were Meant Fir!!!
Don't You Agree Sir!?

Ps... I Also Share Your PassioN fir Film!
Ingrid Bergman's "Gaslight" & "Joan of Ark",
Have BeeN Favorite's of Mine Since I was a wee spit

I'm Also Curious to Your Thoughts oN weather or Not Mr. Braun will Stay iN Milwaukee!?

[irishdenny]

"My Apologies fir the Double Post Folks"