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  #1  
Old 09-11-2013, 07:40 PM
mighty bombjack mighty bombjack is offline
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Default JSA and PSA/DNA are the best things to happen to this hobby

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  #2  
Old 09-11-2013, 07:45 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
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9/11/13 The day to remember.
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  #3  
Old 09-11-2013, 07:47 PM
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Travis bait
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in....."
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  #4  
Old 09-12-2013, 11:51 AM
joed25 joed25 is offline
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They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:55 PM
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They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.
Not sure of the percentage, probably close....but otherwise, agree.
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:13 PM
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They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.
Is that so? And how long have you been involved in "the hobby"?
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:20 PM
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Is that so? And how long have you been involved in "the hobby"?
Is what so?
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:21 PM
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They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.
I would guess the percentage is much lower. I think they are better than nothing, but only for people who know nothing about autographs - for them it's a better crapshoot than the alternative.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:30 PM
joed25 joed25 is offline
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I would guess the percentage is much lower. I think they are better than nothing, but only for people who know nothing about autographs - for them it's a better crapshoot than the alternative.
I agree. I wrote a little too fast. I don't think it's 99% but in my opinion it is close. I hate their high fees... But I can't understand how travesty thinks its bad for the hobby. Try finding a PSA certified Mantle or Dimmagio ball on eBay that is really fake. You will have a very difficult time. So for the uneducated collector PSA is a very good thing.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:49 PM
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And my apologies for my post in this thread. I posted while thinking of the card side of PSA. As for the autograph PSA/DNA.....I really have no comment.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
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Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.

Last edited by shelly; 09-12-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:16 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
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Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.
You kidding? Morales#1
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:27 PM
joed25 joed25 is offline
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Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.
Good point Shelly. I only know about sports. Nothing about entertainment...
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:03 PM
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You kidding? Morales#1
Was not ranking them by importance. Just by name.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:07 PM
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Is what so?
Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:13 PM
johnmh71 johnmh71 is offline
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Their percentage is probably more like 95%, but what would the hobby look like without them? It would be run over by forgers. But at least Travis would be happy.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."
I believe that in order to determine the percentage of authentic/non-authentic, one would need the populations of both categories. I don't believe the former is published, so any guess as to their success rate would be just that.

I heard once that 86% of all statistics were made up on the spot. I'm not sure if that is exact, but I think it's close.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:22 PM
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PSA is brilliant in marketing and making money.
After that I am not so sure.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 09-12-2013 at 04:23 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-12-2013, 04:36 PM
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PSA/DNA reported on their site last year that they were approaching 3 million authentications, with a current rate of 35K per year. I think JSA's been around for 8 years or so? Would they have a comparable number? Are we looking at 5-6 million between the two to date, with the number climbing at a rate of over 1,000 per week?

How many fakes have been found? I take it some people on this site believe the number of fakes authenticated by these 2 companies is 10% or greater - meaning a half-million or more fakes are out there with PSA/DNA or JSA certs? If so, what's that extrapolation based on? When I search the 'net, I can't find more than a few hundred questionable/challenged items. Is there a site that documents tens of thousands?

Isn't there a big number of "slam dunks" that these guys verify - autographs that are extremely easy to authenticate, and autos verified at shows where the autograph guest is present? Wouldn't those alone ensure a relatively high overall accuracy rate?

FWIW, if you look at eBay sold and active listings, about 80% of PSA/DNA and JSA items are sports and 20% entertainment, so I'm guessing that's a good estimate for the split between the two autograph types.
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:55 PM
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They authenticate UDA,Stinson, Simon, Checks, in person autographs and I am sure more slam dunks than I can think of.
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  #21  
Old 09-12-2013, 05:22 PM
joed25 joed25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Atkatz View Post
Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."
I Agree it is not 99%. Spoke to fast. Still I believe with sports they are almost always right and that is HUGE for the hobby where most collectors can't tell what's real or fake. There is a memorabilia store in my local mall in NJ where 90% of the items are clear forgeries and the store is pretty busy. David- What do you think the percentage is? Do you think PSA is bad for the hobby?
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  #22  
Old 09-12-2013, 05:55 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
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Was not ranking them by importance. Just by name.
I was being sarcastic I meant Morales was the best!
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  #23  
Old 09-12-2013, 06:14 PM
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What do you think the percentage is?
It can vary.
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  #24  
Old 09-12-2013, 08:09 PM
shelly shelly is offline
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I was being sarcastic I meant Morales was the best!
Now who is being sarcstic.

Last edited by shelly; 09-12-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:09 PM
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It's possible that Travis' tirades against PSA and JSA has made some collectors feel better about them.

Based on the autographs I have looked at that were authenticated by PSA or JSA, and I have no interest in modern stuff or in non-sports, I would guess that they get things right maybe 80% of the time, and less with the names that are most often forged (see PSA's website for their own list).

edited to add: I don't really care what the percentage is, as I completely ignore LOA's when I am looking at autographs. But what makes me sick is when a board member posts an autograph that he is proud of, that is a blatant forgery, and he feels secure because he has a PSA or JSA authentication. I have sent PM's to board members in the past when I saw this happen, and I generally received a really angry response. So I quit doing that. I have also noticed that few other members respond when such forgeries are posted - if it's a blatant fake, there will be dead silence. No one wants to be the bearer of bad news to a fellow board member.
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deertick View Post
I believe that in order to determine the percentage of authentic/non-authentic, one would need the populations of both categories. I don't believe the former is published, so any guess as to their success rate would be just that.

I heard once that 86% of all statistics were made up on the spot. I'm not sure if that is exact, but I think it's close.
I once had a very skilled and knowledgeable Financial Statistican tell me (jokingly I hope)- Statistics are 50% whatever the client wanted and 50% guess work
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Old 09-12-2013, 10:58 PM
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Personally, it's not the fact that they make mistakes. We all do. I would be willing to bet that every advanced autograph collector/dealer has bought and/or sold an autograph that turned out to be fake. I don't even care that much about the exact percentage. My biggest problem with them is the type of mistakes that they make.

1) Both certed a misspelled Ed Delahanty. Just a 30K mistake. How do you have a lot of faith in a company that can't get an opinion right where the name is spelled wrong? This is either sloppiness, which, considering their prices, is unacceptable or bias based on the relationship with the auction house.

2) Both certed and issued letters for a note supposedly written and signed by mid 1800s boxing champ Tom Sayers. They both pulled their certs AFTER it was pointed out that no one had an exemplar. They followed that by giving opinions, that the auction house published, that both felt the sig was real, even though they had nothing to compare it to. How could they have that opinion? It's not like it was a legal document or something similar. Perhaps, instead of all that, they should've seen they had no exemplar beforehand and stated they couldn't offer an opinion or issue a cert in the first place.

3) They have both issued certs for items in frames without removing them. Why? Lazy/Sloppy?

4) They both have rejected items they previously certed as real. Because the "in the presence" sticker was removed and the items were submitted back to them with letters from Chris Morales. Bias?

5) I have had at least two cases, personally, where PSA and/or JSA has rejected something I sold privately only to have them both cert the same item when submitted by a dealer that I wound up selling them to after the other deals fell through. Bias?

These and many other examples of similar types can be found. IMHO, They reflect sloppiness, greed, favoritism, and shady behavior. None of these things boost my confidence in the "service" they offer.

Now I don't mind having a service where, those who desire it, can send something in to get the opinion of someone who is more knowledgeable about autographs. Another big problem with both PSA and JSA is that no one has any idea who's opinion they are getting. For example, Jim Spence's name is at the bottom of every cert. Does that mean he sees every one? I doubt it. So I am supposed to pay for the opinion of some unknown person of unknown training and experience. Now, Spence may stand behind the opinion of his employee, but neither offers a guarantee or warranty on the items they opine on. Many sellers, including some big auction houses like REA, will state that the PSA or JSA opinion is final. So you buy it and you find out it's fake, the seller won't take it back and the TPA states you are only paying for our opinion. Now to be fair, I have heard of a situation where PSA has reimbursed someone for a wrong opinion, but it's at their discretion solely. IMO, a warranty should be part of their service agreement otherwise, how is that better than getting the opinion of the members of this or any other collecting board? After all, the original purpose for their existence was not to make the item sell for more money, but to ensure that the autograph being bought or sold was real.

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Old 09-12-2013, 11:25 PM
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What he (so eloquently and clearly) said.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:24 AM
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I have many examples similar to those stated by Lordstan, but I'll just state I don't agree that they have been good for this hobby.

Last edited by Big Dave; 09-13-2013 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:21 AM
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Yes, but...condemning all legit TPGs for making the occasional mistake is like condemning all doctors because sometimes patients do not recover or condemning air travel because every so often there is a crash. Mistakes will happen--like letting Travis post here--because all human Endeavors are imperfect [even a Space Shuttle blew up]. The bigger question for any service is whether on the whole it provides value or not. For many collectors TPGs do so. The fact that we can pick out TPG errors and recall them is because there are relatively few of them as compared to the volume of items handled. It just doesn't make good gossip when PSA or JSA gets it right, which they do the vast majority of the time.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
Personally, it's not the fact that they make mistakes. We all do. I would be willing to bet that every advanced autograph collector/dealer has bought and/or sold an autograph that turned out to be fake. I don't even care that much about the exact percentage. My biggest problem with them is the type of mistakes that they make.

1) Both certed a misspelled Ed Delahanty. Just a 30K mistake. How do you have a lot of faith in a company that can't get an opinion right where the name is spelled wrong? This is either sloppiness, which, considering their prices, is unacceptable or bias based on the relationship with the auction house.

2) Both certed and issued letters for a note supposedly written and signed by mid 1800s boxing champ Tom Sayers. They both pulled their certs AFTER it was pointed out that no one had an exemplar. They followed that by giving opinions, that the auction house published, that both felt the sig was real, even though they had nothing to compare it to. How could they have that opinion? It's not like it was a legal document or something similar. Perhaps, instead of all that, they should've seen they had no exemplar beforehand and stated they couldn't offer an opinion or issue a cert in the first place.

3) They have both issued certs for items in frames without removing them. Why? Lazy/Sloppy?

4) They both have rejected items they previously certed as real. Because the "in the presence" sticker was removed and the items were submitted back to them with letters from Chris Morales. Bias?

5) I have had at least two cases, personally, where PSA and/or JSA has rejected something I sold privately only to have them both cert the same item when submitted by a dealer that I wound up selling them to after the other deals fell through. Bias?

These and many other examples of similar types can be found. IMHO, They reflect sloppiness, greed, favoritism, and shady behavior. None of these things boost my confidence in the "service" they offer.

Now I don't mind having a service where, those who desire it, can send something in to get the opinion of someone who is more knowledgeable about autographs. Another big problem with both PSA and JSA is that no one has any idea who's opinion they are getting. For example, Jim Spence's name is at the bottom of every cert. Does that mean he sees every one? I doubt it. So I am supposed to pay for the opinion of some unknown person of unknown training and experience. Now, Spence may stand behind the opinion of his employee, but neither offers a guarantee or warranty on the items they opine on. Many sellers, including some big auction houses like REA, will state that the PSA or JSA opinion is final. So you buy it and you find out it's fake, the seller won't take it back and the TPA states you are only paying for our opinion. Now to be fair, I have heard of a situation where PSA has reimbursed someone for a wrong opinion, but it's at their discretion solely. IMO, a warranty should be part of their service agreement otherwise, how is that better than getting the opinion of the members of this or any other collecting board? After all, the original purpose for their existence was not to make the item sell for more money, but to ensure that the autograph being bought or sold was real.

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+++++

And to add insult to injury when they "authenticated" (using that term very loosely) the Delahanty letter, whether through ignorance or possible favoritism, they did not even note in their COA's that his last name was misspelled. And it was a big auction house where I discovered the Delahanty letter being sold. Starts with H and ends with t.
All dealers and TPA's make mistakes and that is part of the autograph business.
But the bias issue is where I have a big problem with TPA's.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 09-13-2013 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:49 AM
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+++++

And to add insult to injury when they "authenticated" (using that term very loosely) the Delahanty letter, whether through ignorance or possible favoritism, they did not even note in their COA's that his last name was misspelled. And it was a big auction house where I discovered the Delahanty letter being sold. Starts with H and ends with t.
All dealers and TPA's make mistakes and that is part of the autograph business.
But the bias issue is where I have a big problem with TPA's.

What I hate the most is when the auction take down the piece and give no reason. They never admit the authenticator was wrong.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:20 AM
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Adam, your points are well-made, but I don't express my TPA concerns because it makes good gossip. If the airlines had a similar failure rate, I would express my dismay and point out obvious problems if I knew them. The reason the TPAs get away with poor performance is that their customers aren't all knowledgeable enough to notice the 'crashes'.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, but...condemning all legit TPGs for making the occasional mistake is like condemning all doctors because sometimes patients do not recover or condemning air travel because every so often there is a crash. Mistakes will happen--like letting Travis post here--because all human Endeavors are imperfect [even a Space Shuttle blew up]. The bigger question for any service is whether on the whole it provides value or not. For many collectors TPGs do so. The fact that we can pick out TPG errors and recall them is because there are relatively few of them as compared to the volume of items handled. It just doesn't make good gossip when PSA or JSA gets it right, which they do the vast majority of the time.
Adam,
Your response made think about a few things and have a few more questions.

You use the phrase "Legit TPGs" What other legit TPGs are you referring to? The title of this thread is specific to JSA and PSA/DNA, as was my post. Let's be frank...There really aren't any other legit TPGs that have any significant amount of usage in the hobby. We all know the deal with Morales, STAT, Taylor, ACE, Priddy, Max, etc, so they're not whom we are talking about.

Your example using doctors and air travel really doesn't fit with what I wrote. I stated that having a service to provide authenticity opinions is fine as long as the quality of the service is there. I have what I think are a couple more appropriate examples.
1) Suppose there was a surgeon who had done a 1000 surgeries in his lifetime, but cut off the wrong leg on 2 different patients. Would you have a lot of confidence in that doctor, even though his success rate was 99.8%? Would you want to know he cut off the wrong leg twice? Don't you think that would be important information?
So the big guys can get all the Bo Diaz's, Doug Flynn's, Orlando Merced's, etc of the world right, which boosts their accuracy %, but they can't get ONE 30 thousand dollar autograph correct when it's as simple as being misspelled?? I'm supposed to look at this and say...I'm not worried, he only cut off the wrong leg twice, he got all the rest right! He's the best thing to happen to the medical profession. Suuuure.

2) How about an airline that has had 2 crashes in 1000 flights, both due to the fact that they bought inferior parts to save money? Now suppose that supplier was from a company run by the CEO's brother? Would you cry bias? Would you think that this airline was a net positive to the airline industry?

3) Suppose I came to a law firm as a new client. The lead guy I speak to sells me on his skill and I engaged his services. He then proceeds to give all the work to his associate, who hands it to the courts or me without the lead attorney's review. I go on to lose my case, not because no one can win every case, but because the associate has made some critical error or oversight. Now, I'm mad. Why? Well, I was sold on the head guys skill as a lawyer, but I got someone else's work. I realize that associates and assistants do a lot of the ground work, but I expect oversight from the lead attorney. Sure, the associate graduated from Law School and passed the Bar, but that doesn't mean he has the skill and experience that I was expecting when I hired the lead lawyer. Same with these guys. Sure Spence's and the guys at PSA names are on the letter, but whose work am I actually getting? Just because the reviewers collected autographs, maybe got some training in house, and have an exemplar file to look at doesn't mean that they are skilled at authentication.

If I hire Jim Stinson or Richard Simon to authenticate an autograph, I know whose opinion I am getting. I can speak with them and they will inform me as to why they feel the way they do. Unfortunately, most of the non serious collecting public don't know who they are, certs from them aren't viewed in the same way as PSA/JSA.
The big boys want to be paid for their opinions as experts, yet want no responsibility for the consequences of the decisions that are made based upon those opinions. As a family physician, I am paid for my expert opinions as well. The difference is that I am held responsible for the outcomes of my recommendations. This is especially true if my recommendations were made with carelessness, bias, sloppiness, and greed. Hell, some people will try to sue doctors for honest mistakes or poor outcomes, even though any outcome can never be guaranteed in the first place. So if I can be held accountable for my actions, why can't they? We are all PAYING for a service, I think it is reasonable and our right to question the quality of that service.
Again, I'm not saying they don't most correct, but the apparent reasons they get some wrong certainly don't inspire confidence.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:07 PM
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This thread has played out pretty much as I had hoped; this is a nice, level-headed discussion of these TPAs, the likes of which couldn't happen with a former poster around.

My personal view of the two major TPAs is that they are a product of the natural progression of the hobby moving online, following the steps of third party grading. I view them as a minor annoyance, in that their well-marketed presence has probably made my collecting slightly more expensive overall, and I actually think they are doing a fairly decent job given the volume that they deal with. I have seen evidence of incompetence, but no real evidence of fraud, much like a lot of the players in this hobby (I used to work at Topps and I would say the exact same thing about them).

I will say this: a JSA or PSA/DNA cert will not deter me from considering the auto, which is more than I can say for any other TPA that is not also itself a dealer. Call me jaded, but I actually don't think higher praise is possible for such a company that deals in volume in this hobby. For whatever reason, I can't bring myself to ask more of them, as they are a business working under a business model (one that will most likely eventually lead to their demise). They should refund the price of authentication when something they have OKed can be PROVEN fake. Outside of that, I don't see what they can or even should be held liable for.

Again, great thread guys.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:49 PM
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Adam,
Your response made think about a few things and have a few more questions.

You use the phrase "Legit TPGs" What other legit TPGs are you referring to? The title of this thread is specific to JSA and PSA/DNA, as was my post. Let's be frank...There really aren't any other legit TPGs that have any significant amount of usage in the hobby. We all know the deal with Morales, STAT, Taylor, ACE, Priddy, Max, etc, so they're not whom we are talking about.

Your example using doctors and air travel really doesn't fit with what I wrote. I stated that having a service to provide authenticity opinions is fine as long as the quality of the service is there. I have what I think are a couple more appropriate examples.
1) Suppose there was a surgeon who had done a 1000 surgeries in his lifetime, but cut off the wrong leg on 2 different patients. Would you have a lot of confidence in that doctor, even though his success rate was 99.8%? Would you want to know he cut off the wrong leg twice? Don't you think that would be important information?
So the big guys can get all the Bo Diaz's, Doug Flynn's, Orlando Merced's, etc of the world right, which boosts their accuracy %, but they can't get ONE 30 thousand dollar autograph correct when it's as simple as being misspelled?? I'm supposed to look at this and say...I'm not worried, he only cut off the wrong leg twice, he got all the rest right! He's the best thing to happen to the medical profession. Suuuure.

2) How about an airline that has had 2 crashes in 1000 flights, both due to the fact that they bought inferior parts to save money? Now suppose that supplier was from a company run by the CEO's brother? Would you cry bias? Would you think that this airline was a net positive to the airline industry?

3) Suppose I came to a law firm as a new client. The lead guy I speak to sells me on his skill and I engaged his services. He then proceeds to give all the work to his associate, who hands it to the courts or me without the lead attorney's review. I go on to lose my case, not because no one can win every case, but because the associate has made some critical error or oversight. Now, I'm mad. Why? Well, I was sold on the head guys skill as a lawyer, but I got someone else's work. I realize that associates and assistants do a lot of the ground work, but I expect oversight from the lead attorney. Sure, the associate graduated from Law School and passed the Bar, but that doesn't mean he has the skill and experience that I was expecting when I hired the lead lawyer. Same with these guys. Sure Spence's and the guys at PSA names are on the letter, but whose work am I actually getting? Just because the reviewers collected autographs, maybe got some training in house, and have an exemplar file to look at doesn't mean that they are skilled at authentication.

If I hire Jim Stinson or Richard Simon to authenticate an autograph, I know whose opinion I am getting. I can speak with them and they will inform me as to why they feel the way they do. Unfortunately, most of the non serious collecting public don't know who they are, certs from them aren't viewed in the same way as PSA/JSA.
The big boys want to be paid for their opinions as experts, yet want no responsibility for the consequences of the decisions that are made based upon those opinions. As a family physician, I am paid for my expert opinions as well. The difference is that I am held responsible for the outcomes of my recommendations. This is especially true if my recommendations were made with carelessness, bias, sloppiness, and greed. Hell, some people will try to sue doctors for honest mistakes or poor outcomes, even though any outcome can never be guaranteed in the first place. So if I can be held accountable for my actions, why can't they? We are all PAYING for a service, I think it is reasonable and our right to question the quality of that service.
Again, I'm not saying they don't most correct, but the apparent reasons they get some wrong certainly don't inspire confidence.
Very well said.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:19 AM
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Very well said.
agreed, as It stands, should I EVER buy another autograph, it will simply be from Jim or Richard...end of story.

If Big, dumb and stupid is reading this...you see big, dumb and stupid, people agree with you. This is why your head is so fat and hard. You can't even rally people behind you that believe in what you are doing. You jumped the shark so long ago, and now to team with the only jerk-off crooks that will have you, IMHO. It is just a pleasure to not to have to deal with you on any respectable blog going forward. Glad you decided to stop posting here as it is so much more enjoyable for everyone. Please continue with the Kumbaya Connection and never come back to this site.

Nice posts and symbolic of "another side" besides obvious forgeries, of what's troubling the autograph hobby.
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:35 AM
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The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:49 AM
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The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?
And just try and get the one who authenticated your item on the phone, to ask about your item.
Good luck with that.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:50 AM
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David, Richard, Darren, and Chuck,
Thanks guys.
I agree with you Chuck, in that many here agree with many of the points Travis made. Personally, my only dealings with him were positive as he willingly gave me some assistance on a couple of boxing autos. Unfortunately, he, IMHO, was not good at expressing his ideas in a calm and rational manner. To me, a lot of what he wrote came off as ranting, even though I agreed with a good chunk of the underlying message. I think, in many ways, it's too bad he's gone, as I think he does have a lot of knowledge.


Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.

From PSA's Website...

Why PSA/DNA?

The Advantage of PSA/DNA Authentication Services
PSA/DNA Letters of Authenticity are accepted by ALL major auction houses. They include, but are not limited to, Sotheby's, SCP Auctions, Heritage, Legendary, Mile High Card Company, R&R Enterprises and Memory Lane, Inc.

Premium Price and Liquidity
Because potential buyers feel more comfortable purchasing certified items, PSA/DNA collectibles often sell for premium prices due to the strength and credibility of the PSA/DNA brand. Many of the most valuable collectibles in the world have been certified by PSA/DNA. Click here for a list of record breakers.

Why PSADNA Confidence
Buyers can be confident that PSA/DNA collectibles have been witnessed or examined for authenticity by the world's leading autograph experts.


Certified for Life
Because PSA/DNA uses an invisible, permanent DNA marker, the authenticity is easily verified.

Verification
The unique certification number can be used to verify the history of any PSA/DNA Certified item simply by typing in the serial number online.

PSA/DNA's covert DNA-laced ink is extremely durable and almost impossible to replicate! The chance of duplicating our DNA strand is 1 in 33 trillion!

Recertification is easy! Items with lost certificates or missing labels can be verified. We simply check for the DNA using our specially calibrated laser and issue a new label and certificate!

Take the next step and Submit to PSA and PSA/DNA!



From JSA's website...

Why Should I Choose JSA?


Benefits included with every JSA authenticated item:

JSA Letter's of Authenticity are guaranteed to be accepted by all collectors, dealers, and auction houses worldwide, or your submission fee will be reimbursed.
JSA is an eBay approved autograph authenticator.
Increased value and a confident buyer for faster sale of autographed memorabilia.
JSA's extensive autograph exemplar database is second to none in the autograph industry.
Peace of mind that your memorabilia is deemed authentic and ready to be sold, passed along to a family member, or cherished forever.
Secure, virtually impossible to replicate proprietary watermark JSA Letter of Authenticity with corresponding high-resolution image and a unique alpha-numeric certification sticker.

Quick and simple online confirmation of your JSA certification number.
All JSA Letters of Authenticity are fully transferable without resubmission.
JSA's services are utilized by more major auction houses than any other autograph authentication company in the world including:




As I read the above closely, I find it curious that the first reason listed to use their authentication services is not making sure your item is real, but having being accepted by all the major auction houses and eBay! Authenticity isn't even the second reason. Apparently, increasing resale value is also more important than finding out if your item is real. WOW.

From Wiki...

Authentication (from Greek: αὐθεντικός; real or genuine, from αὐθέντης authentes; author) is the act of confirming the truth of an attribute of a datum or entity. This might involve confirming the identity of a person or software program, tracing the origins of an artifact, or ensuring that a product is what its packaging and labeling claims to be. Authentication often involves verifying the validity of at least one form of identification.

I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."

To reinforce what I stated before and what Shelly just restated, in PSA's listing they claim that your item is examined by the world's leading experts. Who? They won't say who examined what item, so how do any of us know? Maybe because they crossed their heart and promised!

All I want is for them to deliver on the service we expect. I'm not expecting perfection, but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.
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  #41  
Old 09-14-2013, 10:54 AM
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but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.

Apparently that is far too much for you to expect. That is a shame ain't it.
Only expect to hand over your money and let them do what they want.
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  #42  
Old 09-14-2013, 11:50 PM
mighty bombjack mighty bombjack is offline
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Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.
The volume has a lot to do with it. Mass marketing and mass production happen in many fields, and just like in those fields, when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed. That is a consumer's choice. The TPAs are losing your business but gaining countless others because of their efficiency. Some people just don't care so much. This ain't medicine, man, on any level really.

Let me ask you this: Who does a better job at authenticating autos than these
TPAs? There may be several people you can name. I could, too. Now, how many autos are they authenticating? To take a proximal example, I trust the opinion of Mr. Simon here way more than the generic face of these TPAs, but if we started asking him to cert the sheer volume that PSA/DNA is handling, he simply wouldn't be able to do it. Would he hire people? Would he train people? Would he turn the business down? Who knows, but something would have to happen to his business model.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordstan View Post
I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."
Correct in spirit, but wrong in execution. We need not change the definition of authentication, but recognize that what the TPAs do is something different. If they were authenticating only, their fees would not directly correlate with the value of an autograph. Yet they do exactly that. TPAs, in effect, take a percentage of a potential selling price of an auto with their stamp. In that regard, they are more akin to marketers than authenticators. View them that way and you may see that their business model is not as broken as you think.

That doesn't mean you have to like them. They can be ignored like most other facets of this hobby.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:13 AM
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...when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed.

...they are more akin to marketers than authenticators.
Yep. It's all fine for the players in that game, and for the most part, even for the educated collector who disregards COA's.

However, one problem I can see would be if I received a PSA or JSA-authenticated item that once in hand, I determined to be a forgery. It might be tougher to return, simply because of the COA.
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:11 AM
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The volume has a lot to do with it. Mass marketing and mass production happen in many fields, and just like in those fields, when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed. That is a consumer's choice. The TPAs are losing your business but gaining countless others because of their efficiency. Some people just don't care so much. This ain't medicine, man, on any level really.
The problem with this line of thought is that people aren't getting this service at a cheaper price. If everybody was paying $5 per, I would probably agree with you that you get what you pay for. The problem is that people are paying full price and getting half quality with possible bias.
While I know this isn't medicine, there are certain parallels. Customers pay for a service and expect a certain level of both quality and speed. There is an old business axiom I learned a while ago that fits here. Products and services can be cheap, good, and fast, but customers will only get 2 out of 3. For example, if a product or service is fast and cheap, it probably won't be good, and so on. Well the TPAs don't even follow this because they are fast but certainly not cheap and whether or not you see them as good is iffy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mighty bombjack View Post
Correct in spirit, but wrong in execution. We need not change the definition of authentication, but recognize that what the TPAs do is something different. If they were authenticating only, their fees would not directly correlate with the value of an autograph. Yet they do exactly that. TPAs, in effect, take a percentage of a potential selling price of an auto with their stamp. In that regard, they are more akin to marketers than authenticators. View them that way and you may see that their business model is not as broken as you think.

That doesn't mean you have to like them. They can be ignored like most other facets of this hobby.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment. People don't care if the TPAs are right or wrong, because the only reason they are using their service is to increase resale prices. Perhaps PSA and JSA should change their names to PSM and JSM, Professional Sports Marketing and James Spence Marketing respectively. If we all accept that they are just expert marketers, then all this discussion stops, as any mistake, whether innocent, sloppy, or careless, and any evidence of bias becomes immaterial. After all, a marketer doesn't have to have any expertise in the authenticity of a product. They just have to know how to make it sell. I must give credit where credit is due and the TPAs certainly know how to market.

I have to say, I'm not sure if the general public realizes all of this. Usually, if I am selling something that doesn't have a cert, which is 99% of the stuff I sell, people will ask how can they be sure it's authentic if it doesn't have a cert. To me, this implies that they actually think the cert means that someone who is an expert reviewed the item and thinks its what I claim it is. Often times to give them some level of comfort, I'll even offer a refund if it doesn't pass one of them.

You are right. The business model isn't broken for them, but it is for us the consumers, that's why we complain. Unfortunately, it's impossible to ignore them if you're into autograph collecting, because they effect you either way. If you use them, the price of the item goes up, if for no other reason that to recoup the cost of the cert fees. This costs me more money when I am buying for my collection. If you don't use them, it makes things more difficult to sell, if your name isn't well known like Stinson, Simon, Cocoran, Keating, Marks, etc.
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Old 09-15-2013, 05:11 AM
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Yep. It's all fine for the players in that game, and for the most part, even for the educated collector who disregards COA's.

However, one problem I can see would be if I received a PSA or JSA-authenticated item that once in hand, I determined to be a forgery. It might be tougher to return, simply because of the COA.
+1
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