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  #151  
Old 03-17-2015, 09:54 AM
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The scans are small, I had to reduce them because the file was to big.
The scratches are highlighted in red on the right.

From left to right it's Ball-Crawford-Cicotte-Seymour-Criss
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  #152  
Old 03-17-2015, 07:03 PM
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Wow Pat.

That's fantastic.

9 vertically for each player if I'm counting right?

Of course a couple of the unfilled corners could be different players.


Steve B
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  #153  
Old 03-17-2015, 08:52 PM
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Damn Pat, brilliant work!
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  #154  
Old 03-17-2015, 09:19 PM
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Thanks Steve and Bryan. Steve I think some of these sheets were more than
9 verticals high of the same subject.
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  #155  
Old 03-17-2015, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
What makes it tough is all the data is spread out over different series and backs and there is evidence that the sheet layouts were changed even among the same series and backs. Using the piedmont 150's as
an example you have a two name Lundren/Dooin and Lundgren/Ball and you have hand cuts of Wagner and Plank.
+1

Walsh/Seymour - Piedmont 150
Walsh/Brown, M - Piedmont 350
Walsh/Lumley - Piedmont, series unknown due to back damage
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  #156  
Old 03-17-2015, 11:21 PM
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We also have Jantz's Shipke/Griffith and my oversized Shipke that clearly is at the top of the sheet. Both P150. I'll come back and add scans when i get to my computer.

Nice work Pat! Really interesting stuff!
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  #157  
Old 03-18-2015, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeLyon View Post
We also have Jantz's Shipke/Griffith and my oversized Shipke that clearly is at the top of the sheet. Both P150. I'll come back and add scans when i get to my computer.

Nice work Pat! Really interesting stuff!
what makes all of this very tough is the probability that sheet layouts may have changed even within a "series."
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  #158  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206hound View Post
what makes all of this very tough is the probability that sheet layouts may have changed even within a "series."
+1
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  #159  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:41 AM
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The sheets very well could have been more than 9 high. But now we know P150 was most likely at least 9 high for the same subject. There's gaps and missing corners, but if they weren't the same subjects I think two name cards would be more common. So keeping it sort of simple --At least 9 high for each subject.

It's good to know a piece like that for sure.

Even if it makes me totally rethink something else I'd been working on that had me thinking each subject was 8 high.

I believe that means it's possible to find at least 9 versions of each front, most likely with very small differences but some will be easily identifiable.

Steve B
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  #160  
Old 03-18-2015, 07:50 AM
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A pair of Oldrings with the same scratch and corner crop mark.

The scratch runs through the i in series the m in piedmont the A in cigarette
the u in quality and the A in factory.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg oldring 2.jpg (77.7 KB, 149 views)
File Type: jpg Oldring 2a.jpg (76.4 KB, 148 views)
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  #161  
Old 03-18-2015, 08:05 AM
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Default Hey guys......

I like Pat's diagram (post #151).....as it is similar to some of the stuff I have been presenting on this forum regarding T206 sheet arrangements.

Although, the subject matter in this thread pertains to Piedmont 150 cards, any indicators in the 150, 350, 460 series enable us to figure out the
possible sheet structure.

For example....illustrated here is my hypothetical simulated sheet of T206's that I refer to as the Exclusive 12 subjects (460 series). My research
suggests that these 12 subjects were printed separately from the other 460 series cards. And, on a standard 19" x 24" cardboard sheet in such a
configuration.

Incidently, the length of this sheet (24") could accommodate a 9th row of T206's....which results in a 108-card sheet.



. l<..................................... 19" wide x 24" long sheet ......................................>l




TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 03-19-2015 at 11:47 AM.
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  #162  
Old 03-18-2015, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
The sheets very well could have been more than 9 high. But now we know P150 was most likely at least 9 high for the same subject. There's gaps and missing corners, but if they weren't the same subjects I think two name cards would be more common. So keeping it sort of simple --At least 9 high for each subject.
Steve B
One interesting side note is that while there are more than a few two name cards with Piedmont 150 in which the subjects are known to have instances of plate scratches, none of the two name Piedmont 150 cards themselves have plate scratches.
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  #163  
Old 03-23-2015, 11:51 AM
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Default It's time for me get in on this "party"

Here's my Green Cobb with scratch marking right thru the PIEDMONT lettering. Are their any other such similar plate scratch markings ?
And, of what relevance does this mark have with respect to the others ? ?






TED Z
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  #164  
Old 03-23-2015, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Here's my Green Cobb with scratch marking right thru the PIEDMONT lettering. Are their any other such similar plate scratch markings ?
And, of what relevance does this mark have with respect to the others ? ?






TED Z
.
Very nice card! I may have a scan of that one.

The same scratch can be found on Goode, and possibly others. Pat has his more organized than the scans I have.

So we can tell that Goode and Cobb green probably weren't on the same sheet, or at least were in different spots if they were on multiple sheets.
Hahn has a scratch that is similar and looks like it would be not the next column over, but the second to the right of Goode/Cobb.

It's really like a big jigsaw puzzle, we just don't have the picture on the box to go by.

With multiple subjects showing the same scratch we can also begin to get an idea how many sheets were used. I think the biggest number with identical scratches is 3 or 4, so there were at least that many different sheets. If it stays at 4, that makes a sheet with between 35 and 40 subjects more likely.

It's also entirely possible that the issue is complicated by there being two P150 plates that were both damaged. There's a couple loose groups of damage that don't appear to be equally common, but it's way too early to consider it to be more than just a possibility.

Steve B
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  #165  
Old 03-23-2015, 03:22 PM
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Steve, The scratch on the Goode I have is higher up, I have Tinker as a
matching scratch with Cobb.
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File Type: jpg Goode 1a Back_1.jpg (80.4 KB, 373 views)
File Type: jpg Goode 1a_1.jpg (78.2 KB, 374 views)
File Type: jpg Tinker _Hands On Knees_ Back (1).jpg (61.0 KB, 374 views)
File Type: jpg Tinker (hands On Knees).jpg (59.8 KB, 373 views)
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  #166  
Old 03-23-2015, 05:41 PM
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Ted, Here's another Cobb with the same scratch as yours.
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File Type: jpg Cobb _port_ 1 Back_1.jpg (54.7 KB, 369 views)
File Type: jpg Cobb _port_ 1.jpg (55.8 KB, 369 views)
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  #167  
Old 03-23-2015, 06:26 PM
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Default Hey Pat

Very nice....talk about consistency on these plate marks.

Well, I will be on the lookout for the same scratch mark on other Green Cobb's with PIEDMONT 150 backs.

Take care,

TED Z
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  #168  
Old 03-23-2015, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Steve, The scratch on the Goode I have is higher up, I have Tinker as a
matching scratch with Cobb.
You're right, I totally blew that one.

Maybe time for better glasses.


Steve B
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  #169  
Old 03-23-2015, 09:46 PM
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Chase

EDITED to remove my Warhop and Keeler mistakes.
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File Type: jpg Chase.jpg (52.9 KB, 357 views)

Last edited by Jobu; 03-24-2015 at 07:45 AM.
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  #170  
Old 03-24-2015, 02:25 AM
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...

Last edited by Pat R; 03-24-2015 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Should have sent PM instead of posting
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  #171  
Old 03-24-2015, 03:04 AM
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It looks like the Warhop is a back scan of a Crandall card.
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File Type: jpg Crandall 2 Back_1.jpg (81.2 KB, 391 views)
File Type: jpg Crandall 2_1 (1).jpg (79.5 KB, 391 views)
File Type: jpg Warhop.jpg (77.3 KB, 389 views)

Last edited by Pat R; 03-24-2015 at 03:08 AM.
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  #172  
Old 03-24-2015, 04:54 AM
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I agree about the Warhop, the back scan shows a pin hole that the front doesnt have. Can't be the correct back scan for that particular card.

Last edited by iwantitiwinit; 03-24-2015 at 04:54 AM.
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  #173  
Old 03-24-2015, 07:43 AM
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Sorry guys, usually I pay more attention to detail than that - you are both correct. The Warhop is from a scan where the seller apparently rearranged the order of the cards when showing the backs (which I never understand; btw it is that same Crandall portrait) while the Keeler does look like the crease on the back. A cautionary tale against posting detail-oriented stuff when tired I guess. I am going to remove both from my post to avoid confusion.

Last edited by Jobu; 03-24-2015 at 07:45 AM.
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  #174  
Old 03-24-2015, 08:12 AM
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No big deal Brian you're an asset to the forum and your posts are helpful
and informative.

If I have your question right it's a different Crandall.

BTW the Chase you posted is a match to the Sullivan scratch.


Patrick
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File Type: jpg Chase _pink_ Back.jpg (79.7 KB, 383 views)
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  #175  
Old 03-25-2015, 07:43 PM
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This probably doesn't belong here, being a 350 series. I'm not even sure it would be considered a scratch. Maybe just a printing error. But it is unique enough, I think, that it probably could be matched up with other cards.

107c.jpg

BTW, unreal research going on here.

It still blows my mind, with the tens of thousands of sheets printed, not one is known to survive. But, I guess, that's what makes it fun !!!
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  #176  
Old 04-01-2015, 08:07 AM
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Switching off the main track to a side-track, have you guys explored other PIEDMONT series cards ?

For example, besides the wet sheet transfer (speckled red), my PIEDMONT 460 red Cobb has a plate scratch mark in the lower right corner.







TED Z
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  #177  
Old 04-01-2015, 12:50 PM
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Hi Ted,

I have seen a few in the 350 series but nothing like the 150's. I lost most
of my data when my computer died around a month ago but there are about
250 different scratches on 105 (could be more but I have to re-do the list)
of the 156 PD 150 subjects, some have multiple scratches in different locations on the same subject for instance Young (Bare Hand) has six different scratches).

Your red Cobb looks like purple ink from the star stamp and not a scratch
to me.

Patrick
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File Type: jpg Young 1a_1.jpg (81.8 KB, 328 views)
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  #178  
Old 04-01-2015, 01:00 PM
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Better scans of the six Young (BH) scratches.
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File Type: jpg Young BH 1a Back.jpg (69.4 KB, 329 views)
File Type: jpg Young _BH_ 2 Back.jpg (67.4 KB, 329 views)
File Type: jpg Young _BH_ 3 Back_1.jpg (70.7 KB, 329 views)
File Type: jpg Young _bh_ 4 Back_1.jpg (63.9 KB, 329 views)
File Type: jpg Young _bh_ 5 Back.jpg (65.9 KB, 329 views)
File Type: jpg Young _bh_ 6 Back (1).jpg (57.8 KB, 328 views)
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  #179  
Old 04-01-2015, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Switching off the main track to a side-track, have you guys explored other PIEDMONT series cards ?

For example, besides the wet sheet transfer (speckled red), my PIEDMONT 460 red Cobb has a plate scratch mark in the lower right corner.






TED Z
.
I think that's just ink from the back stamp and not a plate scratch
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  #180  
Old 04-01-2015, 03:53 PM
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Default Pat R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi Ted,

Your red Cobb looks like purple ink from the star stamp and not a scratch
to me.

Patrick
Patrick

Sorry, but I have to differ with you. The scratch line on my Cobb starts above the "V" (VA) and continues up to the "Y" (QUALITY). This line
traverses a path that is virtually identical to the scratch on your Cy Young depicted in Post #178 (lowermost right Piedmont 150 back scan).

Yes, there is a hint of purple ink in the scratch on my Cobb that most likely migrated from the stamp.


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 04-01-2015 at 06:42 PM. Reason: Correct typo
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  #181  
Old 04-01-2015, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
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Patrick

Sorry, but I have to differ with you. The scratch line on my Cobb starts above the "V" (VA) and continues up to the "Y" (QUALITY). This line
transverses a path that is almost identical to the scratch on your Cy Young depicted in Post #178 (lowermost right Piedmont 150 back scan).

Yes, there is a hint of purple ink in the scratch on my Cobb that most likely migrated from the stamp.


TED Z
.
Ted, The plate scratches are the same blue ink as the piedmonts. The mark
on your Cobb is definitely purple.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P350x460redCobb50x.jpg (54.1 KB, 357 views)
File Type: jpg Young _BH_ 3 Back_1.jpg (59.8 KB, 357 views)
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  #182  
Old 04-02-2015, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t206hound View Post
I think that's just ink from the back stamp and not a plate scratch
+1
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  #183  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:03 PM
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Default Pat R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Ted, The plate scratches are the same blue ink as the piedmonts. The mark
on your Cobb is definitely purple.

I fully realize that the scratches are blue....I'm not color blind.

What strikes me about this line on my red Cobb is that it coincides quite accurately with the line on one of your Cy Young backs (Post #178).

So, I don't understand why you posted the image you did in your above post, when I pointed out the lower right-most image in Post #178.

Please post this particular Cy Young back image next to my enlarged Cobb back image shown here so we can compare.....thanks.



.



Pat....I don't fully understand why this line on my Cobb's back ended up with the purple ink from the star stamp. But, what I do see (under high magnification) is
a very straight fine line that could NOT have resulted from random, stray purple ink splash.



TED Z
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  #184  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:17 PM
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Hi Ted,

What if the star stamp was a wooden block type stamp? Perhaps the line could be one edge of the actual stamp?
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Last edited by wolf441; 04-02-2015 at 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #185  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:49 PM
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Ted,

I think Steve is right it's probably ink from the outer edge of the stamp.

Here's the Young scratch next to your Cobb you asked for.


Patrick
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File Type: jpg Young _bh_ 6 Back (1) - Copy.jpg (63.9 KB, 339 views)
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  #186  
Old 04-02-2015, 02:25 PM
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Default Pat R

Thanks for posting the pertinent Cy Young backscan and my Cobb back scan together.

I would find it to be quite a re-MARK-able (excuse the pun) coincidence that these lines are not related....as you are alluding to.

Incidently, the line on my Cobb does not extend beyond the Y in QUALITY as the Cy Young's line does, because there is a bit of paper loss above the Y.

Steve's explanation does sound plausible. However, the exactness of the alignment of these two marks is incredible.



TED Z
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  #187  
Old 04-02-2015, 06:14 PM
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Ted, I think it is the block stamp also. It's at the correct angle to be square with the star. The two lines (Cobb's and Young's) don't match up. Looking just at where they go through the triangle portion of the scrolling you would think so but they don't go threw the Y at the same place.
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  #188  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Thanks for posting the pertinent Cy Young backscan and my Cobb back scan together.

I would find it to be quite a re-MARK-able (excuse the pun) coincidence that these lines are not related....as you are alluding to.

Incidently, the line on my Cobb does not extend beyond the Y in QUALITY as the Cy Young's line does, because there is a bit of paper loss above the Y.

Steve's explanation does sound plausible. However, the exactness of the alignment of these two marks is incredible.



TED Z
.
Ted, If it's exactness you're looking for this Doyle/Stone combo is a good example they both have the same unique plate scratches, the same spot
missing ink and the same extra ink spots.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Doyle 2 Back_1.jpg (80.9 KB, 324 views)
File Type: jpg Doyle 2 Back_1 - Copy - Copy.jpg (82.5 KB, 324 views)
File Type: jpg Doyle 2 Back_1 - Copy.jpg (82.3 KB, 325 views)
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  #189  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Ted, If it's exactness you're looking for this Doyle/Stone combo is a good example they both have the same unique plate scratches, the same spot
missing ink and the same extra ink spots.
Hi Pat,

It looks like maybe this Doyle was the card directly above the version in the Doyle/Stone combo? The line extension seems to match...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Doyle 003.jpg (44.8 KB, 322 views)
File Type: jpg Doyle 001.jpg (42.3 KB, 322 views)
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you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
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With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
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Strive to be happy.
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  #190  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:43 AM
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Yes it is Steve. Here's both the Doyle and Stone that line up above each other.
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  #191  
Old 04-03-2015, 06:55 AM
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Really, really great work Pat!!!
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T206 Master Set:103/524
T206 HOFers: 22/76
T206 SLers: 11/48
T206 Back Run: 28/39

Desiderata

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Strive to be happy.
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  #192  
Old 04-03-2015, 07:03 AM
Peter W Thomas Peter W Thomas is offline
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Very nice
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  #193  
Old 04-04-2015, 11:07 AM
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Default Donlin/Elberfeld

Here's another pair with the same plate scratches that indicate they were in the same sheet position on different sheets.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Elberfeld 1 Back_1.jpg (80.2 KB, 338 views)
File Type: jpg Elberfeld 2 Back_1.jpg (79.5 KB, 338 views)
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  #194  
Old 04-12-2015, 09:04 AM
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Here's one of the sheets I'm working on. The back plate was used on two
different fronts on this sheet so there are two subjects for each scratch
one is a SC 150 Fact 649 and the other isn't for each scratch so I think
it's possibly the layout for one of two sheets used for the 649 printing.

There are three different scratches or partial scratches on this sheet that
I randomly marked on the template I made. So far there is no way to tell
what vertical row each scratch was in or how many vertical rows there were.

The scratches in the bottom row are bolder than the other two and
easier to find but the two upper scratches are faint and hard to spot
so I'm still looking to confirm a large number of subjects in the two upper
scratches.

The X's on the template indicate if one or both subjects have been confirmed for that particular scratch.

This is just a work in progress so I'm sure there are mistakes but there is also good evidence for most of this sheet layout. There are a few examples where
more than one pair or group are in the same order on two different scratches on this sheet.

If anyone would like to check there PD 150's for the unconfirmed scratches
the template would give you an idea where to look for them for each subject.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg A-B Sheet A-B Template - Copy (2).jpg (80.8 KB, 316 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Sheet A-B - Copy.jpg (80.0 KB, 314 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Sheet A-B Highlighted - Copy.jpg (80.5 KB, 315 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Shaw Back.jpg (81.1 KB, 316 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Shaw 2 Back.jpg (80.7 KB, 315 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Davis 2 Back.jpg (75.8 KB, 313 views)
File Type: jpg A-B Criger 2 back_1.jpg (77.0 KB, 314 views)
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  #195  
Old 04-12-2015, 09:24 AM
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The scans come up to small to see the detail so here's the subjects L-R
on the template.

Turner/Griffith (port)-Pastorius/Weimer- Criger/H.Davis-Hahn/Wilhelm-Murphy/G. Davis-Conroy/?-Lake/Williams-McKintyre/?-Goode/Powell-Hinchman/?-Bergen/Manning-Powers/Shaw-Konetchy/Liebhardt-Ganley/JJ Clarke-?/?-Johnson/Stovall-O'Leary/?
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  #196  
Old 04-12-2015, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: Plate scratches

Awesome work, Pat; just awesome.
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  #197  
Old 04-12-2015, 10:45 AM
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Thanks Ed,

I really need to thank Steve B for pointing this out and starting the two
threads on the plate scratches. It is a lot of fun doing the research and
has become an obsession for me.

Last edited by Pat R; 04-12-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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  #198  
Old 04-12-2015, 06:13 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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I'm amazed at how far this has been taken. And really glad someone has picked it up. Making any serious dent in the monster has and will take the effort of lots of people. Not just to put together the data, but even just reporting one new find.

I'm also amazed it's been taken this far so quickly. Plating stamps took the guys that did it nearly their entire collecting lifetime, and that's with known plate sizes and blocks or strips readily available.

I'm also glad Pat has been linking front flaws with particular portions of the scratches. That's the next big step since that will lead to figuring out how many were in a column. And how many different sheets there were.

Steve B
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  #199  
Old 04-12-2015, 06:42 PM
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This Cicotte scratch has a pink mark on the left below his belt. The plate
scratches indicate that Seymour is to the left (front) of cicotte so there
might be a small chance of finding a Seymour that is miscut left to right
with part of this mark.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cicotte 2.jpg (65.2 KB, 311 views)
File Type: jpg Cicotte 2 Back_1.jpg (72.3 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg Cicotte 2b_1 (1).jpg (59.7 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg Cicotte 2b Back_1.jpg (71.6 KB, 309 views)
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  #200  
Old 04-14-2015, 10:43 PM
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Default Pelty/Young (portrait)

Another matching pair (same sheet position).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pelty Back_1.jpg (79.3 KB, 293 views)
File Type: jpg Pelty Back_1 (1).jpg (71.6 KB, 293 views)
File Type: jpg Young Portrait Back (1).jpg (52.8 KB, 293 views)
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