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Old 07-15-2018, 10:40 PM
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Default Help with Jackson and Wagner ID's

A new member contacted me about these pictures/photos. Jackson and Wagner are the suspects. Thoughts?



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Old 07-16-2018, 12:19 AM
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You know the answer, Leon.

Last edited by drcy; 07-16-2018 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:37 AM
Robinsol1887 Robinsol1887 is offline
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What does that mean ?
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:28 AM
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What does that mean ?
It means you are the new member and the answer is no.

Did either attend Polytechnic Institute in New York? No.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:45 AM
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Beyond that no one in the photo looks like either of the two, that is a college neither of them went to. The famously illiterate Jackson didn't go to college, much less up to one up North.

However, the Polytechnic Institute is now New York University's engineering school, so you can say that's sort of an NYU baseball team-- and college baseball photos are definitely collectible.

Last edited by drcy; 07-16-2018 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:13 AM
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There was a Gilbert Polytechnic Institute in Pennsylvania from the mid 1880s through the early 1920s. Honus was from Pennsylvania. I compared his face to his Warner and Patterson photos and there is a resemblance.
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:19 AM
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There was a Gilbert Polytechnic Institute in Pennsylvania from the mid 1880s through the early 1920s. Honus was from Pennsylvania. I compared his face to his Warner and Patterson photos and there is a resemblance.
No. Honus dropped out of school at age 12. Wikipedia is your friend.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:40 AM
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Correction: Wikipedia is not your friend. How long does it take for researchers or ďWikipediaísĒ to actually correct and edit and upload the proper information that the public posts to that site? Honus went to school until he was 13 or 14 and then he worked at his brothers barbershop. However many baseball players at that time played for colleges, clubs and leagues of schools they didnít attend school etc.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:46 AM
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I do want to clarify that I am the new member. I reached out to the site via a couple of close researcher friends. I have a tobacco era through dead ball era baseball collection that my dad left me when I was a kid after he died. I was fortunate enough to identify most of my pieces and place them in new homes with people who too are passionate about baseball. I’m simply trying to identify my last few pieces. I have about five or six other cabinet photographs as well. I have a comparison photos of Honus with the above picture. The picture of Joe Jackson is actually from a cabinet photo of a team called the Orphan boys. I don’t know if either is Honus or Joe however the people I’ve researched with felt it was the logical Lead. When I reached out to the site Leon offered to post this for me. I will post the comparison photos. I’m just looking for help with my research

Last edited by Robinsol1887; 07-16-2018 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:54 AM
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Default Research on Honus and Jackson and other pieces

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...CSxanIAlibUKmU

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hM9vOK4TgC-k-0

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-I...v7QgMd8AF17Mgk
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:25 PM
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I think wikipedia is an okay start for research, but obviously has to be double checked with other sources.

A problem I have with wikipedia is that their 'concept' articles (cognitive psychology, quantum mechanics, Hinduism philosophy, whatever) are not well written and can make the subject more complicated and convoluted than necessary. The articles should be introductory, but they sometimes needlessly throw in everything but the kitchen sink. There are someties far better, and more concise, articles on the web. That may be due to a wikipedia article being written by multiple authors.

That was my aside commentary.

Last edited by drcy; 07-16-2018 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinsol1887 View Post
I do want to clarify that I am the new member. I reached out to the site via a couple of close researcher friends. I have a tobacco era through dead ball era baseball collection that my dad left me when I was a kid after he died. I was fortunate enough to identify most of my pieces and place them in new homes with people who too are passionate about baseball. Iím simply trying to identify my last few pieces. I have about five or six other cabinet photographs as well. I have a comparison photos of Honus with the above picture. The picture of Joe Jackson is actually from a cabinet photo of a team called the Orphan boys. I donít know if either is Honus or Joe however the people Iíve researched with felt it was the logical Lead. When I reached out to the site Leon offered to post this for me. I will post the comparison photos. Iím just looking for help with my research
I'm willing to help.

It's not Joe Jackson and it's not Honus Wagner.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:52 PM
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Wow, I was a dick last night. No way to welcome a new member. My apologies.
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:18 PM
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I would agree with David that this is the Polytechnic Institute from New York City. The photographic studio is the clue. This photo was done at one of several photo studios owned by Edward C. Dana in Manhattan. His first studio was in Brooklyn. In the 1870's and 1880's he opened 3 in Manhattan - 14th St. and 6th Ave., 872 Broadway and 28th and Broadway. He later opened a second Brooklyn location. His portrait galleries in Manhattan were quite busy as he produced images of many of the Broadway stars of the day. It is highly unlikely that he or any of his assistants would have travelled the approximately 100 miles to Polk Township, PA to photograph a small school team. Gilbert Polytechnic would probably have used a studio in Stroudsburg or Easton which were much closer.
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Old 07-16-2018, 04:27 PM
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Wow, I was a dick last night. No way to welcome a new member. My apologies.
We all knew when we read the 1st post that there were only three acceptable responses: "It's Wagner", "It's Jackson", or "It's both". It's tough to face such limits when approached for expertise.
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Old 07-16-2018, 05:35 PM
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Hairline seems off. Eyebrows too.

Honus-Wagner-photo-Carl-Horner-original-T206-image_edited-1.jpg
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Old 07-16-2018, 08:07 PM
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I remember when a guy was trying to convince me of the authenticity of a 'Honus Wagner' CDV, and my response was simply "But the guy doesn't look like Wagner." Despite other issues with the photo, that was sufficient response.

Last edited by drcy; 07-16-2018 at 08:08 PM.
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  #18  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey View Post
It means you are the new member and the answer is no.

Did either attend Polytechnic Institute in New York? No.
There were many Polytechnic Institutes in the United States in the late 19th century early 20th century. One of which was Gilbert polytechnic institute in Pennsylvania. Click the link below

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...CSxanIAlibUKmU
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
We all knew when we read the 1st post that there were only three acceptable responses: "It's Wagner", "It's Jackson", or "It's both". It's tough to face such limits when approached for expertise.
Here are my links to the pieces that I have I’m not looking to pinpoint one for the name. I’m just trying to figure out what was in my dad’s collection because his notes indicate that these could possibly be those two people. One is of the team Orphan Boys and one is a team called poly Institute. One appears to have someone that resembles Wagner and one appears to have someone that resembles Jackson. Please take a look. Any help is appreciated. I’ve also added the Google doc with research and pictures of one I have pinpointed down to 1884 Wilmington quick steps or 1885 Detroit. However the equipment and the photography leads me to believe it could possibly be 1904 or 1905 Detroit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...CSxanIAlibUKmU

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-I...v7QgMd8AF17Mgk

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hM9vOK4TgC-k-0

Last edited by Robinsol1887; 07-16-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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  #20  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAllen2556 View Post
Hairline seems off. Eyebrows too.

Attachment 323090



Last edited by Robinsol1887; 07-16-2018 at 11:43 PM.
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  #21  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
I'm willing to help.

It's not Joe Jackson and it's not Honus Wagner.
Help wanted. If you scroll down through the thread Iíve attached three Google docs that I have been working on. Please feel free to skim through them and share any input you might have
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
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Wow, I was a dick last night. No way to welcome a new member. My apologies.
I definitely introduced myself to the forum in a very very abrasive manner LOL. No apologies necessary Leon offered to post photos and help me and I accepted that help. My dadĎs collection is super meaningful to me and Iím not looking to benefit financially or to gain attention from it. I truly want to figure out who the people are in the photographs are
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:50 PM
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I would agree with David that this is the Polytechnic Institute from New York City. The photographic studio is the clue. This photo was done at one of several photo studios owned by Edward C. Dana in Manhattan. His first studio was in Brooklyn. In the 1870's and 1880's he opened 3 in Manhattan - 14th St. and 6th Ave., 872 Broadway and 28th and Broadway. He later opened a second Brooklyn location. His portrait galleries in Manhattan were quite busy as he produced images of many of the Broadway stars of the day. It is highly unlikely that he or any of his assistants would have travelled the approximately 100 miles to Polk Township, PA to photograph a small school team. Gilbert Polytechnic would probably have used a studio in Stroudsburg or Easton which were much closer.
Michael, your response is beyond refreshing. I truly appreciate any feedback especially feedback supported by research. I too researched Dana, Brooklyn and New York. I felt the same way about the likeliness of one traveling all the way there or vice versa for a photograph. However when I furthered my research and looked into Polytechnic Institute of New York or Brooklyn it leads me to an entire rundown of the history of those colleges and how they changed their names etc. please look at my 3 Google Dr. documents. I would love to hear more from you.

Last edited by Robinsol1887; 07-16-2018 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by drcy View Post
I think wikipedia is an okay start for research, but obviously has to be double checked with other sources.

A problem I have with wikipedia is that their 'concept' articles (cognitive psychology, quantum mechanics, Hinduism philosophy, whatever) are not well written and can make the subject more complicated and convoluted than necessary. The articles should be introductory, but they sometimes needlessly throw in everything but the kitchen sink. There are someties far better, and more concise, articles on the web. That may be due to a wikipedia article being written by multiple authors.

That was my aside commentary.
I do use Wikipedia. However I mostly use Wikipedia in order to scroll down to the bottom to the works cited. I like to go there and find the source of information. I agree with your opinion of the almost rambling state of some of the articles on Wikipedia
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Robinsol1887 View Post
I definitely introduced myself to the forum in a very very abrasive manner LOL. No apologies necessary Leon offered to post photos and help me and I accepted that help. My dad‘s collection is super meaningful to me and I’m not looking to benefit financially or to gain attention from it. I truly want to figure out who the people are in the photographs are
Welcome to the board. As I said, with or without famous people, it's a nice college baseball photo. Early baseball photos do not have to have famous people in the to have value. If I was an NYU or Polytechnic alum, I'd scoop that one up.

Last edited by drcy; 07-17-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:23 PM
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Welcome to the board. As I said, with or without famous people, it's a nice college baseball photo. Early baseball photos do not have to have famous people in the to have value. If I was an NYU or Polytechnic alum, I'd scoop that one up.
The photo cabinet is an amazing condition. and itís about to go up on the wall in my new house LOL. However if there is someone out there who is interested and scooping it up feel free to let me however if there is someone out there who is interested scooping it up feel free to let me know!

I do notice that the guy in the middle looks a lot like Walter Johnson in his early T206 cards
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:44 PM
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I think the easiest way to go about your research is to attack it from the player end instead of the photo end. Tons have been written about both players in question yet I have never seen anything about either of them playing for any Polytechnic. That would be enough for me as opposed to hope outweighing evidence and convincing myself that I have new information about two of the most researched baseball players ever.
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:21 PM
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I wouldnít say it was hope pinpointing those people I was just following my dads notes from 1980 something. Iíve tried researching Polytechnic Institute but it led me to a long history of the college and how the names were changing and I canít pinpoint what year it would be. Based on the photographs in the photo Iím guessing really late 19th century/ early 1900s?
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:15 PM
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https://broadway.cas.sc.edu/content/edward-c-dana


To the reply for Poly institute only being in New York: here is a cited quote from the above site about photographers from the late 19th century :

Dana was particularly fortunate in securing the services of George A. Connor as his head printer. Dana collaborated with Connor in experimenting with printing processes, inventing a form of carbonette negative (collodion paper squeezed onto ground glass) and then Ivorette print, a brilliantly clear portrait printed on half-gloss cream cards. The broad notice Dana received from his placements in newspapers and magazines enabled him to undertake expansion in the 1890s. He opened branches in Pittsburgh and Brooklyn (run by operator George P. Roberts) and was in the midst of another relocation of his headquarters up Broadway when he died at age 44. His chief assistant at the time of his death was J.E. Giffin.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael B View Post
I would agree with David that this is the Polytechnic Institute from New York City. The photographic studio is the clue. This photo was done at one of several photo studios owned by Edward C. Dana in Manhattan. His first studio was in Brooklyn. In the 1870's and 1880's he opened 3 in Manhattan - 14th St. and 6th Ave., 872 Broadway and 28th and Broadway. He later opened a second Brooklyn location. His portrait galleries in Manhattan were quite busy as he produced images of many of the Broadway stars of the day. It is highly unlikely that he or any of his assistants would have travelled the approximately 100 miles to Polk Township, PA to photograph a small school team. Gilbert Polytechnic would probably have used a studio in Stroudsburg or Easton which were much closer.
According to this site and several others Dana also open studios in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania

http://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/li...t&app_id=2691&


The photographic entrepreneur with the Midas touch added another gallery to his growing empire at 872 Broadway. Periodical photographic reproductions inspired Mr. Dana to transition from publicly peddling his images to selling them to editors, which was not only lucrative but also gave his portraits much greater public exposure than those of his contemporaries. With a booming business, Mr. Dana redirected his attention to process experimentation, collaborating with printer George A. Connor on half-tone printing. Together, they developed several printing processes including a variation of a carbonette negative (collodion paper on ground glass) and ivorette clear portrait printing on glossy cards. By the mid-1890s, Mr. Dana was busily opening another Broadway studio (on the corner of 28th Street) and a gallery in Pittsburgh, PA. He was also preparing to marry Ada B. Sherman when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer in October of 1896. Described vaguely as "kidney trouble," Mr. Dana attempted to continue with his active lifestyle until his rapidly deteriorating physical condition forced him to accept the inevitable. He married Miss Sherman on Christmas Day 1896, and two months later, 44-year-old E. C. Dana died at his New York home with his bride at his bedside. With the foresight of appointing several capable managers, Mr. Dana's studios continued operating successfully for several years after the death of their founder.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:18 PM
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Everyone but you would say you are hoping .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinsol1887 View Post
I wouldnít say it was hope pinpointing those people I was just following my dads notes from 1980 something. Iíve tried researching Polytechnic Institute but it led me to a long history of the college and how the names were changing and I canít pinpoint what year it would be. Based on the photographs in the photo Iím guessing really late 19th century/ early 1900s?
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Old 07-20-2018, 05:28 PM
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I suppose I would be crazy not to
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Old 07-22-2018, 11:56 PM
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For photo recognition, I would use images from the same time period to compare. Another thing I would do is go to newspapers.com and do a keyword search using the school name and the players name. Welcome to the board.
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Last edited by BeanTown; 07-23-2018 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:49 PM
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For photo recognition, I would use images from the same time period to compare. Another thing I would do is go to newspapers.com and do a keyword search using the school name and the players name. Welcome to the board.
Thank you. Will do
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