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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

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  #1  
Old 01-06-2006, 06:32 AM
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Default Cool Old Judge ad piece

Posted By: leon

From our resident Old Judge expert Jay Miller.....

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Old 01-06-2006, 07:16 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Interesting that the front cover of the magazine was devoted entirely to advertising. I bet if you lived in San Francisco when that ad appeared your chance of finding a California League player in one of the packs was greatly enhanced.

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Old 01-06-2006, 10:47 AM
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Posted By: Mark Macrae

Barry...Jay & I discussed this piece earlier this week as I own a copy of a September 1887 San Francisco newspaper with a Gypsy Queen advertisement on the front page. The ad suggests that Gypsy Queens were just being introduced to San Francisco and that Albert Mau was the exclusive distributor. The advertisement further states to look for Baseball players, pugilists and actresses in the packages. This links together these sets which Burdick later divided into subjects and hints at the possibility of an overlap in years of issue. From my own experience, Gypsy Queens (162 & 175) DEFINITELY turn up in estates of families who lived in Northern California during that timeframe. I have never found California League 172's in this area & conversations with longtime West Coast specialists (& HARDCORE HUNTERS) have revealed similar results.

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Old 01-06-2006, 11:05 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Mark- you probably have never dug up any California League players for the simple reason that they are exceedingly rare. Apparently, even during the time they were issued they had to be in extremely short supply. But of the couple of dozen known throughout the hobby, wouldn't you assume they originated in California?

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Old 01-06-2006, 12:50 PM
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Posted By: Jay Miller

Barry--One would think that California League N172s were distributed on the West Coast but experience proves otherwise. The largest group,I believe, was found in a collection in Virginia. The one TIK found came from an attic in Maine. The one that came out in the Christie's Auction several years ago came from the Newport Historical Society and had been stored in a desk there since the cards were new. Of the 19 players known I would guess that 30 cards exist and this would pin about half of the 30 to the East Coast, with the origin of the others remaining unknown.

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Old 01-06-2006, 01:39 PM
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Posted By: Jay Miller

Here's another interesting ad piece. This piece is embossed to give it a 3-D effect

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  #7  
Old 01-06-2006, 01:56 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

It's odd that they wouldn't be distributed in the area of the teams they depict. What baseball fan on the East Coast would have even heard of these California League players?

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Old 01-06-2006, 02:42 PM
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Posted By: Scott Mosley

Thanks for sharing them Jay, I enjoy very much pieces like these that relate to card manufactorers of the day.

Barry, I agree with your reasoning and, along those lines, isn't the SF Hess California League players (N321) issue also an odd choice of subjects for a company based in Rochester?

I always though that it was odd but it could just be my ignorance about the issue.

Anyone know if SF Hess products were sold/distributed out west? Mark?

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  #9  
Old 01-06-2006, 06:28 PM
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Posted By: Mark Macrae

Barry...I agree that it doesn't make sense with the Cal League Old Judges. I would almost expect that they were marketed here, but none of the longtime local (Northern California) collectors ever turned them up in a local collection.I've only been active at this for around 35 years, but the more senior veterans that preceded me (Dobbins, Chericoni, Weiss, Hazelwood, Spalding, McWilliams) have had the same results as I have. Additionally, the longtime institutions (Bancroft Library & Haggin Museum) both have extensive collections of Northern California baseball memorabilia, but no 172's. SF Hess cards of California League players have turned up in many original collections out here ....321 color and 338 (Cal League only). I've never seen or heard or the Major League 338's or the Newsboys turning up here (from a native collection)....just much further east (New York / New England).

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Old 01-07-2006, 04:37 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Marc- When you said no N172 have shown up in original collections did you mean none whatsoever or just no California players? It sounds like you meant no California League but it still makes little sense because if you were using the baseball cards to help market your cigarettes where would you want pictures of local favorites to be distributed- in the same city as the player or 3000 miles away? Something still makes me feel that they were available in the west but somehow disappeared. Maybe before the San Francisco earthquake they were easily found but were all destroyed in the fire. That doesn't explain the Sacramento players, but nobody knows just how much was lost forever in 1906.

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Old 01-07-2006, 12:40 PM
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Posted By: Mark Macrae

Barry....I have seen original groups of 172 Old Judges surface in this area, but Gypsy Queens (175-small) turn up at almost an even rate (locally) when it comes to baseball subjects AND finds which can be verified as being originally collected in this region. In talking with other experienced collectors from different parts of the country, most agree that Gypsy Queens (175-small) are considerably rarer than Old Judges (172) as far as general baseball subjects...This dilemna was hashed and rehashed years ago amongst the local advanced collectors. I never asked Don McPherson, but I don't recall that his group contained any Cal League players when Lew Lipset offered them several years back. I agree that your theory makes complete sense and for the most part I agree with the concept. Its just that the evidence doesn't support it. My findings are consistant with Jay Miller's.In comparison, the SF Hess color cards appear almost as common as 1991 Fleer cards. When looking at what Chericoni, Dobbins, King, Horne and myself have unearthed locally, the count surpasses 200 cards. One would think with so many 321's turning up, that even a handful of Cal League 172's would surface as wellThe 'mystery' Gypsy Queen that you offered a few years back is another example of something never seen by longtime local collectors. Is it an '175 Large with a different scroll design ? After all, '172 Old Judges had different fonts and designs. We'll probably never have a definitive answer.

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