Need some opinions please

[brob28]

Trying not to be paranoid on this one, but there's some frosting on the case that is giving me some concern. Upper right hand side. I can't get it to show very well but almost looks like there are two drops of something (glue) to the left of the frosting. Just wondering if you all think this card looks ok. Thanks in advance guys.

[nolemmings]

It's good

[the 'stache]

Bill, in my opinion, I think you're fine. While others will have much more experience with vintage cards themselves, in the last two plus years, I've done a lot of reading about PSA graded cards, familiarizing myself with their slabs and flips. As somebody that is going to be doing a lot of vintage graded in my collection, I wanted to "arm" myself with all the knowledge I could find to protect myself against those that would try to steal from me. I've read about this very thing on the Collectors Universe forum, here, and on Sportscardforum. I've probably gone from one end of the internet to the other looking for education on this.

Here is an article I authored on SCF, and the discussion is germane to your concerns right now:

The PSA "Flip", a discussion deconstructing faked graded cards.

Keep in mind, that was written two years ago, and I've learned a lot since then. But the basics are sound.

Let me share the process I go through when considering the authenticity of a graded card. If others have suggestions on something I should be doing differently, or have missed, please speak up. But this is how I do it.

Remember, when you have concerns about a slab that you think might have been tampered with, look at all the elements closely: the card itself (does it pass the smell test? In other words, if the card is graded a six, does the card that's encapsulated meet the standards for that grade?). If you have another card from that same set (1961 Topps), get it, and compare it to the one in question. Pull out your magnifying glass, and compare the stock the cards have been printed on. Make sure, too, that the printing is uniform. In other words, keep in mind the technology used to print cards back then, and today. If somebody printed this card at home, it won't look the same. Consider everything-what the edges would look like. Obviously cards are cut differently today, and have mush smoother edges. Some cards you can actually shine a flashlight behind them, and determine if the paper stock is correct.

Next, I look at the slab. This is a PSA slab (the emblem is in the lower right corner), so it's correct, unless somebody has learned how to create exact replicas of their plastic case (which I have been told is possible, but cannot verify). Outside of the one area that has you concerned, the welding of the card appears intact. There is no popping at the posts. So, if the seller of your card were up to something unscrupulous, they'd likely be reusing a PSA slab with a new flip (card), or switching out the card itself.

From the scan, what I am seeing is consistent with an excellent to mint grade on a 1961 Topps. I will of course defer to the expertise of our more experienced vintage collectors who have a more developed eye than I do, but the card itself, at least in my opinion, is of the quality I would expect to see at this grade.

Here's PSA's description of an EX-Mt card:

EX-MT 6: Excellent-Mint
A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

http://www.psacard.com/Services/PSAGradingStandards/

I've compared your card to my 1961 Topps Eddie Mathews in Photoshop.



Obviously, seeing each next to each other in person is preferable, but the coloring and borders appear consistent.

The flip is also consistent. The article I wrote shows that PSA has employed several different looks to their flip, but the typography has remained unchanged. I compared your flip to one of my own, for a 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffery Jr.



In short, at least as viewed from a scan, I don't see anything that would lead me to believe you've been sold anything other than a very nice mid + grade 1961 Yaz.

[nolemmings]

If you think the holder might be compromised, it's worth asking what is now inside, a card that is A) fake; B) altered or C) real and unaltered, but of lesser grade. I'd say none of the above, and that you're OK.

1. The card is real. This was by far my favorite Topps set when I collected post-war. I've handled a couple-three thousand of these and have a box of several hundred next to me as I type. Others of course have at least as much experience and may feel differently, but I see your card as crisp and bold and real. A back scan would be nice but really should not be necessary here. The very few attempts at fake '61s that I have seen have the image somewhat muddy looking and/or have slight bleeding of the black ink. This is often tell tale but not always determinative--I have a "real" Bobby Bolin somewhere with these attributes. If you collect this set-as opposed to just Yaz or HOFers or Red Sox--compare this card to the rest, and you should see that it's fine.

2. The card is unaltered. It is the proper size, which diminishes any chance of trimming. Ironically, I have seen '61 Yaz cards that measure either short or narrow and yet are not trimmed. It is also highly unlikely that the card was oversized and trimmed down. If that happened, I would expect to see it looking like an 8, with very sharp corners, and one side or end might look sharper than the other. Here there are four corners with just slight touches, which is very difficult to replicate, and the left edge is slightly rough, which is typical of the issue and also likely hard to "create". So no trimming. I can't say with 100% certainty that there has been no color added or erasure without seeing the card in person, but a black light should answer those questions.

3. The card is properly graded. Subjective of course, but I see this as a solid 6. Very slight wear on the corners keeps it from a 7, and I believe it is a long way from a 5. A person trying to slip this card into a 6 holder would have been better served just re-submitting it if did not grade well the first time, IMO. It is possible there's a micro-wrinkle not visible from the scan, but then again I have seen many a slabbed card where the grader missed that anyway, so that would not make me conclude that someone was pulling something here.

All in all, nice card!!!!

[brob28]

Bill & Todd, thanks a million. I really appreciate the input. I've got about 30 graded cards from this set but needed some reassurance on this one for some reason. Bill, I will spend some time with the links you provided. Again, much thanks guys!

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by brob28

Trying not to be paranoid on this one, but there's some frosting on the case that is giving me some concern. Upper right hand side. I can't get it to show very well but almost looks like there are two drops of something (glue) to the left of the frosting. Just wondering if you all think this card looks ok. Thanks in advance guys.

You're fine. From the half dozen or so fake Mantles I've seen, put in cracked housings, the frosting runs the length of the entire side. It's just no possible to crack it without this key defect. If it's just a few quarters of an inch like your example, it's likely just a defect.

And when in doubt, check the seller's stats. That's the KEY for me. Does he have a history selling quality vintage? Or is he some yokel dealing in Nascar and late 90s Topps, who all of a sudden has a star card on his hand? Every time I've seen a fake Mantle come up, it's been at the hands of one of these guys, who clearly has no demonstrable experience or history with vintage. Because an experienced vintage dealer can spot a cracked holder a mile away.

[brob28]

[QUOTE=Brianruns10;1132889] "From the half dozen or so fake Mantles I've seen, put in cracked housings, the frosting runs the length of the entire side. It's just no possible to crack it without this key defect."


Thank you, I've often wondered about that. I would have been shocked if someone would spend their efforts on a mid-grade card like this, but the two spots that look like glue in the slab made me feel I needed some other eyes on it! Glad to just be paranoid in this case!