T206 "Wagner" of Soccer Cards - Proposal

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Anish

There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.

I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is an interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.

[aljurgela]

And the fact that nobody can propose any prewar alternatives probably makes the whole topic clear.... outside of Pele rookies, there are no other real potential Wagner cards.

From my perspective, the Meredith 1913-14 Taddy is still as good a choice as any. But I would also propose some alternatives (which also do not trade)...

Would anybody like to see some of my other entrants to the conversation?

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

... than the Billy Meredith.... Over the next week, I will post 5 or so alternatives, though I may need to go into post war....


Al

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Anish

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

I understand what you are saying. But there are 60-70 Wagners in existence. It's $400,000 just to own a beat-up, folded and mangled example. There is no other sport with a $400,000 beater that is so plentiful. There are more Vezina, Nagurski and Mikan cards in existence, but those are also a few thousand dollars to own an example instead of $400,000.

There are lots and lots 52T Mantles in existence and that is an $8,000-9,000 card just to own a beater example, because it's baseball.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

The Graziano card is an interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

You're right. I forgot about that.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

Nearly my entire collection is obscure rarities worth only a couple hundred dollars each. The Amelia Earhart card I am using for my avatar right now is a legendary rarity from the 1938 Heinz Aviators set. I could not believe when it showed up on eBay with a reasonable BIN.

[aljurgela]

Ok, Since most did not like my Billy Meredith 1013-14 Taddy & Co. pick, my next proposal would be the Ferenc Puskas 1947 Nannina. So let's start with the player.

For those that do not know Ferenc Puskas was a legendary Hungarian icon. He averaged nearly a goal per game at nearly every stop in his career - club or country. He is probably best known for his time at Real Madrid playing alongside Alfredo Di Stefano where they won many title (3 European Cups, 5 Spanish division)... and this is all in the back half of his career (after he was 30). Prior to his defection, he led Hungary to the gold medal in 1952 and the World Cup final in 1954 (where they lost 1-0 to Germany).

You can get some basic insights from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Pusk%C3%A1s

In the end, he is rated as the #6 all time player by IFFHS, #7 by World Soccer, #7 by Top End Soccer and #17 by the FIFA internet poll. He was also given the IFFHS award for the Top Scorer of the 20th century and the annual FIFA Award for the most beautiful goal is called the FIFA Puskas Award.

Bottom line, this guy was legit.

So now onto the card. His rookie cards (as far as I can tell) hails from a 1946-47 Nannina issue from Italy. It includes many national teams and is made to be hand cut (think dotted lines like the Post cards from the 1970s).

Here are the current populations:

PSA has 3 grade d- a 2, 5 & a 6
SGC had 4 graded - an "A", SGC 45, SGC 50 and SGC 60

That is a total of 7 graded copies. It has also come to my attention that PSA is no longer taking submissions of this card, though I do not know why.

To follow up with a few of the points raised by others. This card does trade every now and then. The last time that it traded was on eBay about 6 months ago. A hacked copy brought more than $2k, which was quite surprising to me (I was not the bidder or the under bidder). Therefore, I can only believe that there are some people out there than feel that this is an iconic card. I surely do. With that, I hereby open the flood gates to other comments and points of view!

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

Adam...

but wouldn't you say that this was completely unexpected? Also wouldn't you agree that a Clay in similar grade to a Rocky G would not even come close... Rocky would take him down no problem in a similar grade?

[aljurgela]

The Jose Nasazzi rookie card?

First off, this is as good a place and any to talk about how generally in soccer collecting - like many other sports (most prominently American Football and Basketball) - defenders do not get much respect. OK, they can get some respect - think Ozzie Smith in baseball or Rodman in basketball or Gary Payton or the hottest corner of the day in the NFL - but not much as a group. Soccer is much the same way. You need to be AMAZING to get any notoriety at all. Collectors and historian tend to focus on goal scorer's not goal "preventors" - save for the occasional great goalie like Lev Yashin or Beara.

Hence, most ratings have very few defenders in their lists of greatest players - save perhaps the most famous one, Franz Beckenbauer. OK, when onto Jose...

Nasazzi was the captain of soccer's first dynasty - the Uruguayan National Team. Uruguay won the two most important soccer tournaments of the 1920's - the Olympic Games in 1924 and 1928 and follow that up with a win in the inaugural World Cup in 1930 (where Nasazzi won the Best Player Award). Nasazzi was the leader on the field and because of his efforts and notoriety, Top End Soccer has him as the 75th best player ever. and IFFHS has him as the 26th best South American Player of the 20th Century. Read more about that here:

https://iffhs.de/iffhs-history-south...ury-1900-1999/

While this write up is pretty poor, you can learn more about him here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Nasazzi

OK, here is the card... by the way, one of these cards traded a couple of months ago on eBay and only brought a couple of hundred dollars (I bought it), but I think that it worth much more. Let me know your thoughts since nobody seemed to like the Puskas rookie card:

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

Yeah, footballers are evaluated based on technique, skill, touch, speed, vision, etc rather than OBP, WAR, Home Runs, etc. Accordingly, it’s hard to properly appreciate players who don’t have footage on YouTube. The game was also so decentralized before the World Cup and European Championship eras, so who knows how good Dixie Dean was relative to Paulino Alcantara.

I’m not sure if cards (well, stickers) are less intertwined with soccer than baseball. Maybe it depends on the region. I know match programs were big in the UK but I think stickers predominated in South America.

The Puskas and Nasazzi are both awesome cards. Always great to see any important Pre-War issues.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

Because of the global nature of the game and so many competing leagues (and players), I think that I will try and pull some of this together and potentially publish a bunch of information that could be helpful.... Still, I think that we are awhile away from broad acceptance of any players outside of the top 10/20 global players...

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

The Jose Nasazzi rookie card?

I don't think this card is the T206 Wagner of soccer. I actually think Nasazzi is the caliber of player that could have a card with this honor, but I can't think of a card of his that would fit the bill.

For a card to be the T206 Wagner of soccer, it has to be well known by everyone and on everyone's want list. I can't think of any vintage soccer cards (anything pre-1950) that are well enough known by all soccer collectors to make the list. There are some cool rookies out there of star players that are a bit more known, but none that is that well known.

I think the argument for a Pele rookie to be the Wagner of soccer has merits, but I can see that it is more of the 52 Topps Mantle of soccer argument as well, since it's in the same era.

I think a card could bubble up someday that becomes the Wagner of soccer for vintage, where it gets discussed and publicized in media and then over time gets added to all collector's lists. But I think that the vintage soccer hobby is still in its infancy and it might be decades before a card takes that honor.

By the way Al, is there only one 1913 - 14 Taddy Meredith?

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by collect equity

i don't think this card is the t206 wagner of soccer. I actually think nasazzi is the caliber of player that could have a card with this honor, but i can't think of a card of his that would fit the bill.

Agree... I like him... But none of his issues are well known

for a card to be the t206 wagner of soccer, it has to be well known by everyone and on everyone's want list. I can't think of any vintage soccer cards (anything pre-1950) that are well enough known by all soccer collectors to make the list. There are some cool rookies out there of star players that are a bit more known, but none that is that well known.

This is going to be tough because of the global nature of collecting... I will still try and convince you guys with a few other options

i think the argument for a pele rookie to be the wagner of soccer has merits, but i can see that it is more of the 52 topps mantle of soccer argument as well, since it's in the same era.

I agree here completely... Looking for something outside of the "easy answer"

i think a card could bubble up someday that becomes the wagner of soccer for vintage, where it gets discussed and publicized in media and then over time gets added to all collector's lists. But i think that the vintage soccer hobby is still in its infancy and it might be decades before a card takes that honor.

Agree... Who knows what it would be

by the way al, is there only one 1913 - 14 taddy meredith?

as far as i know there are 3-4 known, but not 100% sure

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

as far as i know there are 3-4 known, but not 100% sure

why my answers appear in the body of the quote... But please read