Trivia - Don’t Cheat

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Radbourne threw 678 innings in '84 but his arm almost fell off.

Well, gee. The argument is?

The amount of innings a pitcher can pitch is approaching zero.

I guess we are headed for major league tee ball in 10-15 years.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Well, gee. The argument is?

The amount of innings a pitcher can pitch is approaching zero.

I guess we are headed for major league tee ball in 10-15 years.

The argument is, no one really knows what's right. I certainly dont pretend to know more than the guys actually playing the game. For every Spahn or Carlton or Ryan you select off the top there are probably 50 college and minor league players who destroyed their arms. Heck maybe Koufax could have played five more years if he hadn't pitched 300+ innings while in pain. Could Mark Fydrich have had a career if they would have handled him differently? Plus have you seen the arms coming out of bullpens lately? Its generally an upgrade to get a tired starter out of the game.

[barrysloate]

In an era when pitchers were expected to pitch a complete game, I believe they paced themselves so that they would still have some gas left in the tank for the 8th and 9th innings.

Because today's pitchers only need to go 5 innings, the mindset is to throw as hard as you can until the bullpen takes over. Is it possible that by throwing at their maximum ability, pitchers are putting too much strain on their arms? Pitching is very difficult under any circumstance and causes undo stress on the arm muscles. Maybe there is damage being done by throwing too hard.

Just a guess as I don't understand all the dynamics of what actually happens to a pitcher's arm.

[ncinin]

The last two innings of WGN TV broadcast of the Maloney no hitter exist and his pitch count was in the mid to upper 180's if I recall

[timn1]

Just to push back against the apparent prevailing view here:

Koufax and Maloney are both textbook examples of great pitchers whose arms were blown out by 30, probably through overwork. Just from that same era, you can add Sam McDowell and Dean Chance. (Even Marichal had his last great season at 31 and he was done by 35.)

Yes, there are some amazingly durable guys in every era but they are freaks of nature (in a good way) like WaJo and Ryan and the Big Unit.

As valuable as great pitching is to clubs and as much money is involved for the players, having conservative pitch counts makes all the sense in the world. It's not going to prevent all the injuries, because pitching is an unnatural motion that creates tremendous stress on vulnerable parts of the body. But if it can keep a Strasburg or Syndergaard playing years longer, you have to figure it's a good move for the player and his team.

And I'm all in favor of limiting mound visits and even pitching changes to speed up games. I don't think that pitching seasons of 65 games/ 50 IP are healthy for arms any more than 40 GS/300 IP.

But having your best pitcher make 170 pitches in a regular season game is just nuts.

[barrysloate]

Nolan Ryan had to be the most durable pitcher in history. He didn't have a major injury until his 27th and final season, and threw incredibly hard for his entire career.

I remember he once pitched a 10-inning complete game, walking ten and striking out nineteen. I bet he threw well over 200 pitches in that one. And he was more than ready for his next start. There was nobody like him.

[David W]

Originally Posted by timn1

Just to push back against the apparent prevailing view here:

Koufax and Maloney are both textbook examples of great pitchers whose arms were blown out by 30, probably through overwork. Just from that same era, you can add Sam McDowell and Dean Chance. (Even Marichal had his last great season at 31 and he was done by 35.)

Yes, there are some amazingly durable guys in every era but they are freaks of nature (in a good way) like WaJo and Ryan and the Big Unit.

As valuable as great pitching is to clubs and as much money is involved for the players, having conservative pitch counts makes all the sense in the world. It's not going to prevent all the injuries, because pitching is an unnatural motion that creates tremendous stress on vulnerable parts of the body. But if it can keep a Strasburg or Syndergaard playing years longer, you have to figure it's a good move for the player and his team.

And I'm all in favor of limiting mound visits and even pitching changes to speed up games. I don't think that pitching seasons of 65 games/ 50 IP are healthy for arms any more than 40 GS/300 IP.

But having your best pitcher make 170 pitches in a regular season game is just nuts.

You are exactly right.

For every Gaylord Perry or Sutton who pitched forever there are a bunch of guys like Mel Stottlemyre, Catfish Hunter, Larry Dierker, Jim Colborn, Steve Busby, Mark Fidrych, Don Drysdale, Marichal, Koufax, who all had little to no careers after age 30 or never came close to 30.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

In an era when pitchers were expected to pitch a complete game, I believe they paced themselves so that they would still have some gas left in the tank for the 8th and 9th innings.

Because today's pitchers only need to go 5 innings, the mindset is to throw as hard as you can until the bullpen takes over. Is it possible that by throwing at their maximum ability, pitchers are putting too much strain on their arms? Pitching is very difficult under any circumstance and causes undo stress on the arm muscles. Maybe there is damage being done by throwing too hard.

Just a guess as I don't understand all the dynamics of what actually happens to a pitcher's arm.

The poster boy for your theory would be Wilbur Wood.

From 1971-1975

Wilbur pitched 1680 innings, started 224 games, had 99 complete games and generally started with two days rest.

[barrysloate]

Wood threw 376 innings one year and I think his record was something like 23-20. He even pitched both games of a doubleheader.

[timn1]

a knuckleball pitcher?


Also, I remember hearing that anecdote about pitching both halves of the doubleheader for years - but I finally looked up the results and it's not much of a recommendation. Wood started the first game and failed to retire a batter, taking the loss. Started the second game and lost 7-0. July 20, 1973

4.1 total IP
9 H
13 R (10 ER)
W - 0 / L - 2

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by timn1

a knuckleball pitcher?


Also, I remember hearing that anecdote about pitching both halves of the doubleheader for years - but I finally looked up the results and it's not much of a recommendation. Wood started the first game and failed to retire a batter, taking the loss. Started the second game and lost 7-0. July 20, 1973

4.1 total IP
9 H
13 R (10 ER)
W - 0 / L - 2

Give him credit.

Not everyone can have a bad day twice in one day.