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  #1  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:02 AM
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Default Rare Shoeless Joe Jackson autograph

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/s...or-100k-020815
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2015, 09:03 AM
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Lol...
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  #3  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:35 AM
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Something I'd buy for a dollar.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:44 AM
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I saw these the other day in the HA auction. Just doesn't add up for me. Interested in hearing the experts chime in on these.
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  #5  
Old 02-09-2015, 10:52 AM
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did Joe all of a sudden learn how to write that day
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2015, 11:04 AM
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A very large and reasonably neat signature AND INSCRIPTION,,,in my opinion very typical of Joe Jackson. NOT !!
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Old 02-09-2015, 04:34 PM
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Here is his signed draft card. I say real. The whole "he couldnt sign" nonsense has been blown completely out of proportion. He very obviously could sign. My guess was he was embarrassed by how poorly he wrote and mostly just avoided doing it.
joe-jackson-ww1-draft-card-front.jpg
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2015, 05:10 PM
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My guess was he was embarrassed by how poorly he wrote and mostly just avoided doing it.
You are really going out on a limb there.
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Old 02-09-2015, 05:12 PM
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You are really going out on a limb there.
Yes as opposed to saying he never signed anything when he obviously did. Lol
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Old 02-09-2015, 05:25 PM
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Yes as opposed to saying he never signed anything when he obviously did. Lol
Did someone really say that he 'never' signed

Sorry, I missed that - if you were kicking a moron, I apologize for having a slight laugh at your expense Please carry on.
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  #11  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
You are really going out on a limb there.
I think it is time for you guys to see the new hauls of shame site. It is about Joe and I know you do not like Nash but this is really interesting.
http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19597#more-19597
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  #12  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:18 PM
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I think it is time for you guys to see the new hauls of shame site. It is about Joe and I know you do not like Nash but this is really interesting.
http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=19597#more-19597
Well the purported Jackson signed photo I recalled seeing is the one referenced as having sold in a Sotherby's auction in 1999.
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:24 PM
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The two teams from different states and leagues thing is pretty weird unless there were other teams signed as well? I just did a comparison on the Ted Easterly and think it is authentic. Of course a good forger could do what I just did too but I think its good.

easterly clos eup.jpg

easterly draft edit.jpg
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Old 02-09-2015, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkit1 View Post
Here is his signed draft card. I say real. The whole "he couldnt sign" nonsense has been blown completely out of proportion. He very obviously could sign. My guess was he was embarrassed by how poorly he wrote and mostly just avoided doing it.
Attachment 178455
Um.........he signed the card at the bottom, he did not fill out the info. Two entirely different hands at work. His actual signature at the bottom of the draft card looks nothing like the photo . AND I know next to nothing about autographs.


Edited to say photo instead of ball.

Last edited by sb1; 02-09-2015 at 06:17 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:11 PM
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Um.........he signed the card at the bottom, he did not fill out the info. Two entirely different hands at work. His actual signature at the bottom of the draft card looks nothing like the ball. AND I know next to nothing about autographs.
Scott, I think I confused the issue by posting pics of the ball.

Here are all the legal documents I could gather, that show his signature - the close-up is from his will. I don't think the one on his contract (with Comiskey), or the 1949 license are authentic, but I'm no Jackson autograph expert. All pics are from Blackbetsy.com:
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Old 02-09-2015, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkit1 View Post
Here is his signed draft card. I say real. The whole "he couldnt sign" nonsense has been blown completely out of proportion. He very obviously could sign. My guess was he was embarrassed by how poorly he wrote and mostly just avoided doing it.
Attachment 178455
Then his autograph must have really deteriorated in the five years between when he signed that photo and that draft card.
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Old 02-09-2015, 05:55 PM
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Is the photo itself a legit Type 1? It would really take some stones to try faking an autograph on a several thousand dollar piece when the fake signature could have been added to something of lesser value. I don't have a take on the authenticity of the signature, but could you imagine someone trying to fake a Jackson signature on a real 1915 Joe Jackson Cracker Jack?
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  #18  
Old 02-09-2015, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post
Um.........he signed the card at the bottom, he did not fill out the info. Two entirely different hands at work. His actual signature at the bottom of the draft card looks nothing like the ball. AND I know next to nothing about autographs.


I'm not referring to the ball just the photo.

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Then his autograph must have really deteriorated in the five years between when he signed that photo and that draft card.

Deteriorated and sloppy are two different things. Squeezing his name on to the bottom of a draft card and having free reign on a 5x7 photo could certainly cause a sloppier autograph for an already sloppy autographer. That's the other thing I never understood is people assuming that one autograph has no variations? I signed my name twice a day on my timesheet and cant tell you how many times each one looks significantly different. These (the photo and the draft card) are far from significantly different.

Last edited by milkit1; 02-09-2015 at 05:58 PM.
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2015, 05:57 PM
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Theonly thing I find suspicious is having two different teams from two different leagues signed on these photos.. I assume the photographer would have had to get the photos developed and then come back and have them signed so even the two teams playing an exhibition game seems unlikely?
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:09 PM
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Sean, I was wondering the same thing. First thought was that a lot of these players never made the team (Giants or Indians), so he would had to have gotten the prints made quickly, just to find the players again to sign. Maybe he took them at the beginning of spring training (March), was covering just these two teams, and got them developed over a few days. He would have kept a negative logbook of some sort, so if they were still around after the prints were developed, it shouldn't have been a problem.

Whoever was asking about print dating - read the earlier posts.
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  #21  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
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Theonly thing I find suspicious is having two different teams from two different leagues signed on these photos.. I assume the photographer would have had to get the photos developed and then come back and have them signed so even the two teams playing an exhibition game seems unlikely?
New York had teams in both leagues - it would be easy to take pics of the Giants at the Polo Grounds, then get some shots of the team visiting the Highlanders...

But then where would the connection to the Cleveland barn come from?

What strikes me as odd are the following two quotes that don't seem to fit together:

"The family offered to sell the scrapbook five years ago to Bowen's husband because they knew how much he treasured the 60 photos. The price tag: $15,000."

"A collector all his life, he appreciated its history and connection to his hometown. Not knowing the book's sky-high value, they never locked it up or worried about keeping it out of sight. "It wasn't an investment," she said."

So, I ask myself, who pays $15,000 for 60 pictures without doing a little research? For that matter, who SELLS 60 pictures for $15k without doing research? And how is that expenditure not an investment? Also, how does a guy who's been "a collector all his life" not know Joe Jackson signatures are quite rare and valuable?

It just sounds odd. I'm not an autograph guy, but should the two "J"s be so different, with the second being so wide? and the "s" on his last name looks more well-formed than images I've seen of his signature. But I don't know anything about that, it's the story I don't quite buy.
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  #22  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:07 PM
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I know nothing of autographs, so no intent to throw fuel on the fire, but I will say that I have the worst handwriting of anyone I know, and I am admittedly embarrassed and uncomfortable with my signature. It has changed significantly over the years and today varies notably fom signing to signing. I recall purchasing one of my homes and filling out all the mortgage and legal documents, and the lawyer asked me to do it all again because my signatures varied so much. To me the photo and draft card are not that significantly different, or at least reasonable that the same person could have done them.
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  #23  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milkit1 View Post
Squeezing his name on to the bottom of a draft card and having free reign on a 5x7 photo could certainly cause a sloppier autograph for an already sloppy autographer.
I don't know a lot about autographs, but I definitely agree with this statement. I write large, typically have a large signature. Whenever I sign my name on a check, it looks a lot different than when I sign my name to another type of document. The reason is, is that the "J" in my last name tends to have a large bottom loop. Well, since there isn't much room at the bottom of a check, I have to modify the "J" to make it fit the check (otherwise it runs off the bottom).
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:17 PM
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49 license clearly not his signature....(edit) oh you pointed that out already Scott.
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Last edited by vintagesportscollector; 02-09-2015 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:19 PM
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I meant photo. my mistake, the documents you provide are the same as the draft card.
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Old 02-09-2015, 06:19 PM
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If the Heritage photo is real, it's the only signed Joe Jackson photo in existence.

I think there are enough authentic Jackson signatures to compare it to, even if you toss out all the baseballs.
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Old 02-11-2015, 07:53 PM
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I thought some were good and some were bad.

But I did a little research so that I could give you an honest response. After looking at as many 'won in the ninth' inscriptions as I could find, I think almost all of them are secretarial, signed almost always by one of two signers. There is a huge tell on all of them that they were not signed by Matty. More later.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:25 PM
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A few more thoughts on the Matty. Mathewson had some variance in his signature, and some of the variants were slow and deliberate, like the one on this photo - the example we are looking at would be the easiest Matty style to forge. If you look at check examples from the 1920's, you'll see a few that are very slow and plodding like this. Not so much with other authentic signatures from the ca. 1911 period - they are generally signed quickly and confidently.

Here are two signatures with 'Yours Truly', from two different periods, that were both signed quickly and confidently - the flow is perfect. Draw your own conclusions.
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Last edited by Runscott; 09-10-2018 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:36 PM
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There is a straight foreword standard test for determining how long writing has been on the paper. It's done by taking a small sample and determining how dried out is the ink by timing how long it takes to dissolve in solvent. It takes longer to dissolve the longer the writing has been on the paper and a short time if the writing is recent. Even years after the writing, the ink continues to dry out. Many forgeries have been identified using this method.

The other method involves identifying the specific chemicals and substances in the ink. That's the test that would be expensive.

Last edited by drcy; 02-11-2015 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:44 PM
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A few more thoughts on the Matty. Mathewson had some variance in his signature, and some of the variants were slow and deliberate, like the one on this photo - the example we are looking at would be the easiest Matty style to forge. If you look at check examples from the 1920's, you'll see a few that are very slow and plodding like this. Not so much with other authentic signatures from the ca. 1911 period - they are generally signed quickly and confidently.

Here are two signatures with 'Yours Truly', from two different periods, that were both signed quickly and confidently - the flow is perfect. Draw your own conclusions.
Thanks for posting these, Scott. The hell with flow--compare the photo to these, and it's obvious that not a single letter formation is correct.

The photo is rubbish.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:52 PM
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Thanks for posting these, Scott. The hell with flow--compare the photo to these, and it's obvious that not a single letter formation is correct.

The photo is rubbish.
The problem is that some will compare these autographs, letter for letter, with the one on the photo, and they will think they are similar, not realizing that if you attempted to copy the two examples I provided, the hesitation in the flow of your writing would yield something similar to what's on the photograph. So I am abandoning that angle of discussion.

Imagine yourself doing the drunk field test while you are stone-cold sober, versus when you are fighting to stay out of jail. That would be the second two examples versus the one on the photo.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:45 PM
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For some reason I was thinking Matty passed away sooner then he did. I guess he could have signed that format of photo near the end of his life.

I don't think there's any way those photos were signed in 1911, but early to mid-20's could be a possibility, if they are legit.
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Old 02-11-2015, 08:59 PM
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For some reason I was thinking Matty passed away sooner then he did. I guess he could have signed that format of photo near the end of his life.

I don't think there's any way those photos were signed in 1911, but early to mid-20's could be a possibility, if they are legit.
It is similar to slowly-written checks from the 1920's, but the s-o connection crushes that possibility - not even vaguely like anything Mathewson ever did. Look at a few examples by googling 'Mathewson signed check'. You will find examples that look similar to this one and you will see what I'm talking about.
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Last edited by Runscott; 02-11-2015 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 02-11-2015, 09:17 PM
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Good discussion.
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