Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

[Lordstan]

Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Josh,
First off, I have to say that I like your auction House. Though I have never bid, I have been tempted on numerous occasions, but had to hold off due to other factors.
I am disappointed that you would take this stance. Beside the mismatched ear, The photo clearly states "Camp Surgeons Office, Special Examining Board. Why would a visiting baseball star be included in an official photo? I mean, I could see an informal group photo with a bunch of soldiers, but an official staff photo? Seems a bit far fetched to me. On top of that, he is buried in the back. If you had a star like him coming to visit your group and you wanted to take a photo, why would you hide him in the back dressed like everyone else? I think they would put him front and center to show off that the group met that star.

All that aside, the ear doesn't match. To quote myself from another thread, as it bears repeating "The one thing main point that I learned about facial recognition by watching Mark(Bmarlowe) go through his facial analysis is this. It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain."

I thought it was common knowledge that Joe Jackson had some plastic surgery done during this time period, guess he wanted to change his ears.... lol

[wonkaticket]

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77105

Here's a nice one, yeah this is Walker as much as it Jackie Robinson, classic Huggins & Scott I don't need ask Mark if this is Moses.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=77099

As for Jackson photo above who knows I'm with Mark not thinking it's Jackson. How about this Jackson? I thought these were fantasy items proved to be not good long ago?

[Tigerden]

Actually the guy may in fact be Robert Deniro's grandfather at second glance. Mole on cheek and all. At the end of the day it may just be a $175 WW1 panorama photo that can be found in most antique stores in America. Hell even if it was Jackson which we can all agree is a major stretch would it really be worth much money to a sports collector ? It would be nothing more than a novelty and a where's Waldo conversation piece .

[Econteachert205]

Would like to see another message from the auction house in light of the proof members have illustrated.

[Ladder7]

Parties are excused. Please step out,

[sayhey24]

I believe if you go to the man in the row directly below "Jackson", and then go two over to our right, you could make the same case for that being Ty Cobb!

Greg

[blackbetsy]

I believe Josh said there is some evidence that Joe toured military facilities after his playing time with Harlan. I have no evidence of this, nor do I have any newspaper accounts of Joe doing this. Trust me, if Jackson had toured a facility like this during the war, it would have made a newspaper around the country. The war was over by December and I don't see Joe needed to make a rah rah tour for the troops. In answer to Josh's request to see if I had any articles proving Joe was in SC or GA in December of 1918, I'll look into my articles and see if I can round anything up. I have over 20 Gb of digital newspaper copy from this time period, will be easy to search that, but I also have 4, 4 drawer filing cabinets of printed out newspaper copy and that will take much longer to dig through. Sometimes the Savannah paper did make mention that Joe was back in town, but I do not remember if they said it after this return from Wilmington. Joe's niece Maggi Hall said he returned to Savannah for the winter after this time with Harlan, course that doesn't mean he didn't go back north for a photo op at Fort Meade, but I do not believe this photo captures that moment.
For the final time, to the OP, Joe NEVER served in the military, that is documented fact, shipbuilding was and is not considered a military job. Lord know, I would love for this photo to be Joe Jackson, it would give me another item to research, but the reality is.....it's not Joe. Everyone wants an original photo of Joe to sell for big money, I get that. I've seen many of these so-called Joe Jackson photos in my 33 years of doing this. What you have is a neat photo of some military guys during World War I, a great photo in and of itself........I just don't think the Shoeless one is in the photo.

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

[EVAJOY91]

To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo. This jackson panoramic was at this years national. Bill goodwin, ha auction and legendary auctions looked at the photos. All agreed that they believed this to be jackson. Today, my wife was at home with 15 women. She was giving a west german mid century vase party to where the women who attended were able to buy her collection of vases. After all this confusion i waited to the end of her party and asked the 15 woman to look at each photo i presented to them on my mac computer. I asked each woman if the man in photo #1 in the top hat looked like the man in the baseball uniform. All 15 woman said yes. "they were the same person" all the woman heard of shoeless joe jackson but only 2 had ever saw a photo of him. I told them after all agreed that the two photos were of the same man. Again, opinions are objective. But when you get 13 woman who had never seen a photograph of joe jackson and when you asked them (15) to look at each man in both photos for comparisons and they all agree that they were the same person well, what more can be said?

[CW]

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91

To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo.

The fact that you do not even mention the ears of the subject in multiple posts shows that you really have zero knowledge in the field of facial recognition. Repeating the same thing numerous times does not make it true. Your only disappointment should be with the final realized price on your piece (assuming H&S are dumb enough to run it to fruition) which will be severely lower than expected.

Once Mark (bmarlowe1) states his educated opinion on this matter, it's pretty much case closed. Trust me on this. You are starting to embarrass yourself. Mark knows his shit, and the man has pretty much stated that it is not Shoeless Joe.

Ah, how the lure of a quick buck will make people stoop to desperate measures. This would apply to both the consignor and the auction house.

Also, maybe I'm off here, but shouldn't the OP have his/her full name out there?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91

To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is that this shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo was first posted back in july. It's hard for me to believe that not one who responded today didn't see the original post in july. I have 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here. I have been working all day today as i have back in july getting 100% agreement with this photo. This jackson panoramic was at this years national. Bill goodwin, ha auction and legendary auctions looked at the photos. All agreed that they believed this to be jackson. Today, my wife was at home with 15 women. She was giving a west german mid century vase party to where the women who attended were able to buy her collection of vases. After all this confusion i waited to the end of her party and asked the 15 woman to look at each photo i presented to them on my mac computer. I asked each woman if the man in photo #1 in the top hat looked like the man in the baseball uniform. All 15 woman said yes. "they were the same person" all the woman heard of shoeless joe jackson but only 2 had ever saw a photo of him. I told them after all agreed that the two photos were of the same man. Again, opinions are objective. But when you get 13 woman who had never seen a photograph of joe jackson and when you asked them (15) to look at each man in both photos for comparisons and they all agree that they were the same person well, what more can be said?

You're correct it was posted and was a small pic if I remember, it was also posted in a "show" your display items type thread so most wouldn't have piled on or given much thought I know I didn't. I think I might have even said neat item etc.

Now that it's for sale and with big pictures, and claims it's going to be inspected a bit more.

This is like when you hyped your overprint T206. You got folks talking looking to help your sale/consignment. Sadly the talking here on this item isn't 100% it's cool good luck as it was with the T206.

[wonkaticket]

Mark, I have question for you and need your photo skills to help me. I have a photo I think is Moses Fleetwood Walker I would like to sell to H&S, can you let me know if it's him...looks a bit like him.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91

To all who responded. What i find very disappointing is ....... 5 other photos which was used for photo comparison. They were from 1917, 1918 and 1919. All show the bump on the chin. The nose is exact haircut and eyebrows are a match. I think a good pair of glasses are needed here.

EVAJOY91 - What you don't understand (and perhaps Josh did not realize) is that Huggins & Scott recently hired me to identify faces in an early baseball photo. They didn't hire hire you (nor did they apparently leave to to Josh). Why do you think that is the case? (I'm thinking they may not do it again )

As for the "Fleet Walker" photo mentioned above by Wonka (below far left), lot 237, which not surprisingly also originated with EVAJOY91, http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190922 - obviously not 19thC uniforms, and more obviously not Walker:

[baseball tourist]

I asked my wife who has not heard of Shoeless Joe but has heard of Joe Dimaggio btw, to look at the images and didn't share my opinion. She is a a photographer and visual artist, and is just completing her MA in fine art studies (she has a great eye for detail and is smart....no taste in men....but that is another story!).

Katie (my wife) says "the solider has a flatter, more rugged jaw line that the pics of the baseball player" and "the soldier had a cleft or dimpled chin, noticeable even in the low res image, while the baseball player has a convex or protruding area on his chin". "Not the same individual".

Katie also correctly indicated that the hat the soldier is wearing is not a "top hat" but is a "campaign hat".
A campaign hat (also campaign cover, drill instructor cover, drill sergeant hat, lemon squeezer, Montana Peak, Mountie hat, ranger hat, sergeant hat, Scouts hat and Smokey Bear) is a broad-brimmed felt or straw hat, with a high crown, pinched symmetrically at the four corners (the "Montana crease").

[thecatspajamas]

Eva, instead of posting an endless array of photos of Joe Jackson, can you please post just 1 higher-resolution image of the individual in your panoramic photo? If comparison photos are warranted after that, I'm sure that plenty of high-quality comps can be produced of Joe Jackson. You (and/or the folks at Huggins) are the only ones with access to the guy in the panoramic though.

[murphusa]

Just another case of a collector spending days on his knees praying that an item is really what they want it to be. Yup, a farm tool is a bat. The paper item is old., the pennant too cool not to be real. The guy in this picture is....

People and their money are always around to make fools of themselves and there is always someone there to help them along

[Lordstan]

Dude,

Let me repeat and see if you get it this time.

It doesn't matter how many parts of the face do match, if one, and it needs to be only one, part doesn't match, it's not the same person. The exceptions are differences that can be explained by age, illness/surgery/injury, or weight gain.
You can point out the brow and chin and forehead and nose and eyes as much as you want. The ears aren't the same so it CAN'T be him. The shape of your ears Do Not Change. The ears must match or IT ISN'T THE SAME GUY.
A couple other points.
1) Stop saying he was inducted. He was not inducted into the military. He never joined the military. He took a private job in a factory that made ships for the military INSTEAD of joining the military. None of us here agrees to anything else. You're they only one who thinks he was in any way in the military.
2) Having 15 women look at a photo and say the 2 guys look like each other is possibly the worst and least scientific argument you have made here today. None of them have any expertise, like Mark (Bmarlowe1) does, to do any sort of facial recognition. Just because a bunch of people state someone looks like someone, doesn't overrule EVIDENCE. The ears don't match END OF STORY.

I don't remember seeing this photo in July, so I may not have commented, but I will say this...You bring these items on here with all sorts of claims. Every time someone points out how it isn't what you want it to be, you always seem to have some explanation and refuse to admit that you are wrong. Chris (Baseball Tourist) listed a bunch or them in post 13, but left out the Fire Dept belt that you tried to say was a baseball belt. We present fact after fact and you still don't believe.

EDIT: I agree with Lance. Post a high res photo of the guys in the military photo's face.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91

....I think a good pair of glasses are needed here....

At least with respect to photo ID, it seems there has been a significant improvement in auction house behavior in recent years. This change is correlated with (and likely influenced by) the emergence of at least several people outside of the AHs who have demonstrated that they are really good at this. That has fostered an increase in both healthy skepticism at auction houses and a general improvement in photo ID skills among the collecting population.

I have been fortunate to participate in all this as a consultant on early baseball photo ID to collectors, auction houses (including Huggins and Scott), major libraries (Library of Congress, Boston Public Library),authors, and most importantly I have written more articles on this subject than I can count for SABR. As such, I am more than willing to match my skills against deluded collectors and German vase enthusiasts.

It is the behavior of the auction house with respect to this photo and the “Fleet Walker” image that is most disturbing. The wholly irrational commentary posted here by the AH in response to arguments of well-known experts is appalling and should be embarrassing. Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert, and Dave Grob is the best memorabilia researcher and authenticator I know of. Add to that the ear discrepancy, and you have one of the worst examples of nonsense that I have seen on net54.

Mar.kFim0ff
co-chairman
SABR – Pictrorial History Committee

[blackbetsy]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert

Thanks for the kudos Mark, I respect your work as well, when you confirmed your thoughts on it not being Joe, then I was SURE if wasn't him, although I was already 99 percent sure it wasn't :-)

[blackbetsy]

On another Joe Jackson note, I have a photo up for sale on the upcoming RMY Auctions. It is of Joe and his 1925 Waycross (GA) Coastliners team. You can see it here at: http://blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/new-...al-cropped.jpg
I acquired this from the grandson of the editor (during Joe's playing days there) of the Waycross Journal Herald newspaper. This is the only known copy to exist as it was not sent out over the wire services by the small town newspaper. Just in case anyone here may be interested in obtaining a REAL image with Joe Jackson in it (Jackson, third from right in photo).

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

[EVAJOY91]

Net54 members, today I asked Bill Huggins to pull this shoeless Joe Jackson military panoramic photograph from his upcoming auction. I will further my research because I believe that this is Shoeless Joe. I thank you all for your information and want to thank Hugging & Scott who stood by me till I asked them to pull the item at 12:10pm today Tuesday Sept, 16, 2014.

[hugginsandscott]

Thanks for all your input. With agreement from the consignor, we are pulling the Joe Jackson military panoramic from the auction.
Josh

[Tigerden]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

On another Joe Jackson note, I have a photo up for sale on the upcoming RMY Auctions. It is of Joe and his 1925 Waycross (GA) Coastliners team. You can see it here at: http://blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/new-...al-cropped.jpg
I acquired this from the grandson of the editor (during Joe's playing days there) of the Waycross Journal Herald newspaper. This is the only known copy to exist as it was not sent out over the wire services by the small town newspaper. Just in case anyone here may be interested in obtaining a REAL image with Joe Jackson in it (Jackson, third from right in photo).

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

Wow Mike. That is an incredible and I mean incredible Type 1 photo of the real Joe Jackson. Thanks for sharing. That should garner serious interest. A true beauty and in a baseball uniform as opposed to a military (not Joe Jackson) uniform. Adam

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

At least with respect to photo ID, it seems there has been a significant improvement in auction house behavior in recent years. This change is correlated with (and likely influenced by) the emergence of at least several people outside of the AHs who have demonstrated that they are really good at this. That has fostered an increase in both healthy skepticism at auction houses and a general improvement in photo ID skills among the collecting population.

I have been fortunate to participate in all this as a consultant on early baseball photo ID to collectors, auction houses (including Huggins and Scott), major libraries (Library of Congress, Boston Public Library),authors, and most importantly I have written more articles on this subject than I can count for SABR. As such, I am more than willing to match my skills against deluded collectors and German vase enthusiasts.

It is the behavior of the auction house with respect to this photo and the “Fleet Walker” image that is most disturbing. The wholly irrational commentary posted here by the AH in response to arguments of well-known experts is appalling and should be embarrassing. Mike Nola has shown himself to be a high quality researcher and he is probably the preeminent Joe Jackson expert, and Dave Grob is the best memorabilia researcher and authenticator I know of. Add to that the ear discrepancy, and you have one of the worst examples of nonsense that I have seen on net54.

Mar.kFim0ff
co-chairman
SABR – Pictrorial History Committee

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=178305

They have had quite a few....

Some other classics that may have been missed.

http://aug14.hugginsandscott.com/cgi...l?itemid=71538

The sign is early 20th at best, a little research will show you that the producer of the sign was Belgian company that wasn't even up and running big till the 20's/30's and was a tin producer of lots of things such as cocoa tins.

Not everything that has the W.D. & H.O. Wills LTD. "Pirate Cigarettes" brand is connected directly to the T215 issue of cards but in the H&S world it is. When the current winner of this sign figures out what he bought and does a little digging overseas....he's going to find he may have paid a tad too much.

I get that not every auction house can do hours of research on every item they sell they may not have the man power etc. But at the very least don't make up stuff, just say early 20th Pirate Cigarettes sign...why jump to T215 era and big stories. Just like with the Wagner partial back...just say miscut Bowerman all the fantasy stuff is really insulting.