The other T207 backs

[frohme]

Been on the board off and on since about 2006 - my post count is pretty low for the time I've been here. I think this may be the very first post I've started (outside a couple B/S/T posts). Those of you that know me know there's only one thing it could be about... That said, this was intended to be a follow-up post to the T207 basic backs and general info post, but this one was more interesting.


The T207 set has been collected and discussed well enough that information about the front/back relationships has been established for quite a while. In its shortest form, it goes .. there are two main classes: those that can be found with Recruit (150) and those that can be found with Broadleaf (50). The other backs fall in one class or the other. That's it.

Like its more well-studied siblings T206 and T205, though, there are pockets of mystique (or at least mystery) about a few of those "other" backs and their general populations.

• The Red Cross back has been the odd man out for a long time. Until the recent Louisiana find containing 8 new examples, only a handful were known. Trae R's very recent find of Fournier brought the known player total to 14 (15 cards) all of which are Broadleaf-class cards. How many more will show up? Will all 50 Broadleaf class cards be found?
   
• Blank-backed T207's have been known for a while, with a large group having been brought (back?) into the hobby in the not-so-distant past. Until recently (2015/2016), only Recruit-class cards had been found with a blank back. In 2015 a Broadleaf-class card was found with a blank back. Two more were found earlier this year - the count now stands at 3 (Fournier, Sweeney, Ragan). How many are known? How tough are they really, compared to T205 or T206?
   
• The Anonymous (Factory 3, LA) back has always been somewhat misunderstood as it the only back that can be found on the 50 Broadleaf class cards as well as some (50?) of the Recruit-class cards. The "?" is there because, to-date, only 49 Recruits with the anonymous back have been cataloged, and those only recently. All 49 were sold as part of a larger lot in Heritage's Oct 2012 auction. This back is exceedingly difficult for the Recruit-class - harder even than the Broadleaf-class. Sample sizes are tiny - some cards having only 1 or 2 known copies at this point.
   
• That brings us to the red-headed step-child of the set, the Napoleon back. A Recruit-class only back, the potential fronts total 150 (155 with the known-variations). Based on Net54 surveys revisited only occasionally over the last few (10?) years, it is not clear today that all expected front/back combos exist with the Napoleon back. Given the rarity of Napoleons in general w.r.t. Recruit and the overall apparent lack of interest, its not really a surprise. Readers should not imply that the unconfirmed ones are any more rare or unusual than any other Napoleons - most T207 collectors believe its just a matter of time before these all show up (i.e. once someone notices).

.

If you have any of these backs and want to show 'em, don't hesitate. If you have more details, general info, questions, comments or feedback, by all means, pile-on. I'll follow up with a Napoleon confirmation thread to see if we can knock out the ones that remain uncatalogued (at least as far as I know).

As I've said many time previously, I'm indebted to the publications of those that have gone before - notably the VCBC articles of board members Bob M and Tim N. My interest would not have been piqued without their effort as inspiration.

Thanks for reading!
--
Mike

[buymycards]

Hi Mike,
I love your thread. I have never fully understood the breakdown of different backs for the T207's.

Thanks for clarifying this for me. Since I mostly collect just cards that are manufactured in New Orleans, I enjoy seeing the Anonymous backs.

Rick

[rhettyeakley]

I have this one...

[marcdelpercio]

Great info, Mike! The T207s have long been my favorite set, and to me the most interesting, challenging, and mysterious of all sets of the era. As you noted, the tough backs in this set are TRULY tough...far more so than any T206 or T205 counterparts. I really can't add much to your post, as you have laid it out very thoroughly. Here are a few interesting cards, though...a blank backed Lively and some Anonymous Recruit class cards. And even though this is a "backs" thread, here are a couple of interesting fronts as well...a scrap/missing color pass Bodie and Fisher.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

What a tremendous thread! From time to time, I have pondered buying some T207s. It just seems so enormous...I just don't know where to start! Great information!

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[RCMcKenzie]

Including the Evans I just bought on ebay, I have 6 Napoleon backs...

[Steve D]

Nice post.

I have 17 t207s, including all the hall of famers. I've thought many times about attempting to complete the set, but am scared off by all the tough cards.


Steve

[Brian Van Horn]

Somebody last week on eBay bought a Napoleon back of Harry Hooper for $1000.00. A little much for me, but......

[Vintagecatcher]

The T207 set is certainly a challenge to collect. With the help of Mike and others, I have been able to acquire all the catchers in the set minus Irving Lewis and the Livingston "A" on shirt.

I have also managed to collect all but a Red Cross back in the set. My favorite back is the Cycle back. Have a Red Kuhn and a William Kelly. My lone example of a Napoleon back is George "Peaches" Graham. My only Anon (Factory 3 LA) is Otto Miller.

Patrick

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

[*]The Red Cross back has been the odd man out for a long time. Until the recent Louisiana find containing 8 new examples, only a handful were known. Trae R's very recent find of Fournier brought the known player total to 14 (15 cards) all of which are Broadleaf-class cards. How many more will show up? Will all 50 Broadleaf class cards be found?

Does anyone have any additional information about the 5 cards found prior to the Louisiana find?

The first "find" was supposedly 4 cards found sometime around 1983(?). Weaver and Blackburne were 2 of the cards... does anyone know who the other 2 were or where the cards were found?

Then a Lange card was found sometime later. Any info on when/where that one turned up?


Oh and my T207 Factory 3:

[RCMcKenzie]

As mentioned above, here is the Steve Evans, (36 hour eBay turnaround)...The bios on these are interesting...Here they note that Evans was a "comedian", not unlike some of our post-war collector friends on here...

[frohme]

Hey Zach,

I think there hasn't been much change in that area since we hashed through it in 2014 - www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190490. We didn't get much other input, and left things with as much uncertainty as we started, I think...

That said, there is reference from a well-known and respected board member stating visual confirmation of the Ward Miller from a 2005 Net54 thread - see http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=76180. That thread also has the reference to Miller being the 5th Red Cross known. I believe this thread predates Joe Jones' find of Lange in 2006/2007. There's also reference to Lowdermilk ... a few years ahead of its time.

Even in 2003, our esteemed moderator (hi Leon!) knew of 5, four of which had been known for a long time. He also said that (outside of those 5 as I read it) he knew of a Lowdermilk... see http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=63561

Not sure what that all means, other than by piecing things together from various threads, one could argue that:

1. the five known cards (in 2003) were:
   
   • Weaver
   • Blackburne
   • Benz
   • W. Miller
   • and a 5th, as yet unknown/unremembered card
2. The Lange find - former(?) Fourm member Joe Jones (joejo20) - later in the decade was #6.
3. The 8 cards from George D in 2010 were #'s 7-14 with the first dupe (Blackburne)
4. Trae R's find recently makes 15.

... or, that could all be bunk.

All we know for certain is that we have images of 12 cards. We also have numerous details and recollections from hobby members with reputations beyond reproach that at least two others exist ... possibly 3 or even 4, if the Lowdermilk referred to in the threads linked above actually exists and had no relation to the George D find.

Its pretty much a morass.
--
Mike

Originally Posted by ZachS

Does anyone have any additional information about the 5 cards found prior to the Louisiana find?

The first "find" was supposedly 4 cards found sometime around 1983(?). Weaver and Blackburne were 2 of the cards... does anyone know who the other 2 were or where the cards were found?

Then a Lange card was found sometime later. Any info on when/where that one turned up?
...

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I never considered 30 some odd cards as much of a project until I started taking a deeper look at the T207s like your Cubs team set and the Cardinals team set I am looking into. With the different backs and factories in T207, that is quite a task! The Cubs set would be another one I would like. Happy hunting!

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