The long awaited PSA half grade!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- there actually are errors made with cards deemed altered. Some of them aren't, some are resubmitted and get numerical grades, so it is not as clear cut as you think. That's what makes this all the more complicated.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I wanted to be post 300. thanks a lot.

Corey -
"if the issue is not clear cut (i.e., one could reasonably argue either way, making it a subjective determination), I would be shocked if a grading company would reverse itself and infuriate its customer base in the process."

with that statement - can we agree that grade reductions CANNOT be made. There is no such thing as a clear cut 1/2 point or 1 point grade reduction. It is subjective.
I have seen cards that should be 3's get a 4 and cards that should be 5s get a 4. That is a 2 point swing... a 2 point range/ margin of error in a 10 point scale.

I agree completely - reversing itself would infuriate its customer base.

And if something counterfeit or ridiculous comes along I am sure PSA will make a phone call.

But to lobby for 1/2 point or 1 point reductions is just ridiculous.

(I know - we just disagree its all good)

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Posted By: barrysloate

I saw I was 300...be patient, and by Tuesday you can be 400!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Barry -- I thought the situation you were expressing concern about is when upon re-submission a card is downgraded to authentic. For the reasons I described, in those instances, I don't think it is that complicated. Unless it is clearcut, I don't think grading companies will do it. Am I wrong? Have they? For those other cases -- a card upon initial submission being designated authentic -- I wasn't focusing on them inasmuch as this thread deals with re-submissions.

Joe -- I agree. All half grade changes up or down are subtle. That is why in one of my earlier posts I stated I wasn't too exercised over PSA not doing bumpdowns. I'm a guy who believes in the market and that in the end cards will sell for what they are, not what the holder says. Still, with that said, to many collectors it obviously is a big deal and as a matter of principal, the policy should still be to bump down as well as bump up. I'm just uncomfortable with a grading company that is supposed to stand for objectivity to purposely turn a blind eye to an overgrade and knowingly return to circulation a card whose grade does not fit. In regard to alterations, though, that is something entirely different. That is just outright fraud. There a collector cannot look through the slab and determine that the grade doesn't fit and the card is altered. There a grading company IMO has an obligation, upon resubmission, to not purposely ignore alterations.

EDITED for clarity

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Posted By: Joe D.

it seems we are in more agreement than I had originally thought.
We are like next-door neighbors on this issue

with regard to this comment:
"In regard to alterations, though, that is something entirely different. That is just outright fraud. There a third party cannot look through the slab and determine that the grade doesn't fit and the card is altered. There a grading company IMO has an obligation, upon resubmission, to not purposely ignore alterations."


I am under the assumption that PSA or SGC or any other grader does not take out the card from the original slab when they review the card for a possible grade adjustment. I could be completely wrong - but I thought that was the procedure (to keep the card in the slab).

With your statement 'third party cannot look through the slab and determine that the card doesn't fit and the card is altered' - are you assuming that all of these cards are cracked out by PSA so that they don't have to look through the slab? Is that how it is done?

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
Are you going to change write-ups in your current auction to indicate which of the cards are good candidates for a bump?
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I'll bump 'em all, no charge!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- I think the fairest system is one where a card is simply reevaluated, and it has a chance to be bumped up, bumped down, stay the same, or be deemed altered.

Now many would say why would you pay a fee and risk getting a bump down? Well, if you were sitting with say a hundred slabbed cards, you may only send in the twenty likeliest candidates to get upgrades. If you suspected you were sitting with a possibly altered card, you would never let them see it. But that isn't my point.

There are actually cards sitting in Authentic holders that are not trimmed at all. Maybe they were miscut at the factory, or are naturally a little small, or were simply holdered that way in error. The point is, not every card deemed altered is.

Did I answer your question, or am I rambling?

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Posted By: Eric B

Using the most popular vintage set as a guide, what percentage of T206 PSA 8's should get the bump to 8.5? If you said 50%, you are wrong! Or at least you should be.

The pop reports currently go from PSA 5 - 17600, PSA 6 - 9100, PSA 7 - 4150, PSA 8 - 2240, PSA 9 - 260. They very closely drop by 1/2 as you go towards the higher grades until you get a huge dropoff at the 9 level.

Therefore, if the rate slows down by half as you get higher, we should expect twice as many cards at the lower grade rather than the .5 grade. So 33% of the cards should get a bump. At least at the 6 or 7 level they should. But since the dropoff is higher at the 8 to 9 level, it should be closer to 20% deserving of the bump.

If half the cards end up getting the bump, then something is wrong. If this happens, I have a feeling that the 8.5's will get the prices that 8's currently have, but the non-bumped cards will lose value. Markets have a funny way of correcting themsleves from manipulation.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

My understanding, buttressed by some of Kevin's posts, are that many alterations can be detected without taking the card out of the slab. And many others, if not conclusively detectable with the card in the slab, exhibit such characteristics as to reasonably raise the possibility of alteration so as to make it incumbent to take the card out of the slab. If it turns out the card was unaltered, it can be simply reslabbed as before. So I do believe a grading company upon re-submission has a duty to look for alterations. If the examination through the plastic reveals nothing suspicious, then at that point while of course it would be great if the practice would still be to take the card out of the slab in the event something was missed, even if they don't, my guess is that most alterations would be detected and removed from circulation.

For the collector buying a slabbed card, he of course is not expected to have the equipment or the expertise to know if a card is altered, even if it did exhibit such characteristics as to make the alteration obvious to any expert examining it inside the slab. So that is why such a person has no way to protect himself from buying an altered card unless the grading company steps up and upon re-submissions looks for it. As to the arguments that all PSA is looking to do with the half grade bump up policy is to focus only on those characteristics that pertain to a bump up (e.g., centering, corner wear) and ignore everything else, I regard that explanation as quite lame. First, from the complaints some have registered about what they plan to charge, I think a more thorough look is warranted. Second, come on, how long a look does it take to detect most alterations if you know what you're looking for and have the proper equipment and expertise? Third, and most important, given the significant percentage of altered cards from certain issues, for those issues at least, I believe that if someday challenged the law very well might impute to them a duty to look for alterations.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Actually the question I was asking you was if you thought, upon re-submission, there was a practical risk of a grading company incorrectly or subjectively downgrading a graded card to "Auth" (i.e., making a decision that was either flatout wrong or that could reasonably have been viewed differently by other experts)?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- I think there is a possibility that they could believe a card may be altered and in fact be wrong, but I would think the majority of the time they would get it right... It's not always a slam dunk, however.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"I bet this board would have much less of a problem with SGC offering a greater than equal bump review if they had a grade scale change - because the assumption is SGC hasn't made the mistakes that PSA has made.

So again, thats what it comes down to. People just want PSA to start anew - because this board has its own negative bias of PSA grading."

The folks with their panties in a wad over the PSA change are collectors of extremely high grade cards and registry participants who are concerned that their status will change. Fact is, people who collect SGC 2-4 cards are not the same people. We (the first group) are far less concerned with a 0.5 bump in grades because the cards aren't in allegedly pristine condition to begin with, don't involve the same monetary considerations, and aren't involved in a registry war.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: JimB

"The folks with their panties in a wad over the PSA change are collectors of extremely high grade cards and registry participants who are concerned that their status will change. "

Actually, it seems that the opposite is true. Those "with their panties in a wad" seem to be primarily lower grade collectors and people who do not use PSA anyway.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"The folks with their panties in a wad over the PSA change are collectors of extremely high grade cards and registry participants who are concerned that their status will change."

Here comes the havenots to bring up class warfare! Actually, the high grade registry participants are more concerned about the devaluing of their investments than their standing on the registry. But why bring up the obvious when the havenots can feel superior for a brief moment?