PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[orly57]

So if psa is shown proof that a card was doctored, they will still not label it "altered?" Then what the hell gets an altered? Only trimmed cards?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by orly57

So if psa is shown proof that a card was doctored, they will still not label it "altered?" Then what the hell gets an altered? Only trimmed cards?

Sounds like PSA doesn't consider a cleaned card as altered as long as thre are no signs of cleaning - nothing you can see, smell or feel. I tend to agree.

[orly57]

Um...this is from the psa web site for when a card is "ungradeable." N-5 and N-7 seem pretty clear here.

[ullmandds]

looks like the seller will clear a little over a grand...congrats!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

looks like the seller will clear a little over a grand...congrats!

But the first seller probably cleared 50 or more.

[VintageBen]

sold for $6600 in spring of 2015 as a 4.

sold for $46800 as a 7.

Just sold for $52351 as a 7. PWCC made over $4k on the sale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by VintageBen

sold for $6600 in spring of 2015 as a 4.

sold for $46800 as a 7.

Just sold for $52351 as a 7. PWCC made over $4k on the sale.

I believe it sold in between REA and Goldin for a lot more than that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

Um...this is from the psa web site for when a card is "ungradeable." N-5 and N-7 seem pretty clear here.

Maybe the before and after scans were not "evidence"?

[orly57]

This is true. Looks like they would require mitochondrial DNA of known card doctors to be lifted from the card and analyzed by Dr. Henry Lee.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by orly57

Um...this is from the psa web site for when a card is "ungradeable." N-5 and N-7 seem pretty clear here.

N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring and trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

How do you know the paper stock was altered? You've seen the card in hand?

N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.

The key word there is evidence. The card has to show evidence. I would assume that means something you can feel or smell. And the before and after pictures are not evidence because I'm sure the graders didn't have the luxury of seeing the before pic like we did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring and trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

How do you know the paper stock was altered? You've seen the card in hand?

N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.

The key word there is evidence. The card has to show evidence. I would assume that means something you can feel or smell. And the before and after pictures are not evidence because I'm sure the graders didn't have the luxury of seeing the before pic like we did.

PWCC easily could have provided such pics if it was genuinely interested in ensuring the appropriateness of the grade when it sent it back in. For all we know, it did.

[dplath]

Though not high end, the centering is perfectly acceptable for a 7. From PSA's website:

[ NM-7 ] Near Mint 7 shows a slight surface wear visible upon close inspection. There may be slight fraying on some corners. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. A minor printing blemish is acceptable. Slight wax staining is acceptable on the back of the card only. Most of the original gloss is retained. Centering must be approximately 70/30 to 75/25 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC easily could have provided such pics if it was genuinely interested in ensuring the appropriateness of the grade when it sent it back in. For all we know, it did.

The card, not pics, the card has to show evidence. And it has to show evidence of a whitener or a solution. Water is neither.

Come on, Peter. You've read my previous posts about PSA. I absolutely despise them. But they aren't wrong here. PSA's grading standards are right there in black and white and people are twisting it around.

[Leon]

Seems the card has been pulled...? woops, didn't realize it sold....still looks like a 7 to me

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=...ctions&_sop=16

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The card, not pics, the card has to show evidence. And it has to show evidence of a whitener or a solution. Water is neither.

Come on, Peter. You've read my previous posts about PSA. I absolutely despise them. But they aren't wrong here. PSA's grading standards are right there in black and white and people are twisting it around.

I do not for a minute believe that card was cleaned using only water.

[botn]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Sounds like PSA doesn't consider a cleaned card as altered as long as thre are no signs of cleaning - nothing you can see, smell or feel. I tend to agree.

Sounds more like PSA doesn't want to admit to a mistake and write a check.

[nrm1977]

I would for surely want to know if a card I was buying at this price point was restored. Though, we're all different and I respect that. Now, if a low-end card I needed for a set was soaked in water to remove dirt, I wouldn't mind that at all. Though, I've seen cards soaked for dirt removal. I don't see how the tape markings were removed without chemicals. Which is not allowed by 3rd party grading companies. I thought the grading companies smelled the cards to detect chemicals? I recall in the book Mint Condition that being said. Again, I would think, if someone used a chemical you would be able to easily smell it but who knows?

I do feel the card should be disclosed as being restored. Dirt removal would be fine by me but, not tape markings/residue. For example, when you're buying a original classic collectible car, they typical stat if the car has been restored. Restored classic cars sell for less. I know it's a different hobby but, I'm just giving an example.

It's a nice looking card but, I just don't see how it got a 7 with the centering and faded "markings", which are clear as day. PSA would never admit they were wrong about a card of this price point. By them admitting they might have been wrong, would result in them not being credible. In their line of business credibility is number one. No way in a colds day in hell they'd admit it.

To the gentlemen that was flipping the card, even though I don't "flip" cards, I'm glad you made your money back. Though, I was taken back when you said this thread was costing you money on your "investment". A high dollar card like this was restored, I'm sure a buyer would want to know.

Lastly, this is why having cards graded by a 3rd party company is so subjective. Way too much faith is put into these companies. Maybe someday this section of the hobby will be regulated somehow. For me, I'll just stick to my 401k, real estate, for investing purposes and continue to collect cards for the enjoyment which it was intended for, a fun hobby!

Nick

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by orly57

So if psa is shown proof that a card was doctored, they will still not label it "altered?" Then what the hell gets an altered? Only trimmed cards?

I wonder if PSA was made aware of the doctoring when the card was sent in for review?
James