Thoughts on the National...

[GKreindler]

Hey all,

So, I had a thought recently that I've been wrestling around with. I brought it up to the 800lb gorilla (Dean) today, and after our conversation, it seems like the match has gotten tougher. And at this point, I thought it was worth bringing up to the boards, as all of your opinions would be incredibly valuable. I should warn you that I'm going to ask a bit about money and how you spend your own, so please know that I do not mean to offend anyone or come across as being rude or crass. This is all just information that I'm trying to gather for my own understanding (and sanity).

For starters, some of you might remember that Dean and I did the National in Cleveland five years ago. It was the first time I had ever taken part in a convention or trade show like that. We had a GREAT time. In all honesty, it was one of my favorite long weekends of ALL time. We had a booth that was filled with larger paintings from my inventory, and there was even enough room for me to set up my portable easel and get some painting done while Dean sat around and handled other stuff (probably porn-related). The photo below illustrate it pretty well:



I got to meet a lot of people and made a ton of friends (many of whom are on this board today). It was basically an excuse for me to talk shop with fellow passionate collectors for five days and enjoy myself. From my point of view, it couldn't have been better.

But then there's Dean. He enjoyed himself for the most part, don't get me wrong, but I think he was a little bit disappointed with the actual sales that were made. In those five days, a collector purchased a 12" x 16" portrait, and another commissioned a smaller 5.5" x 10" painting of the T206 Wagner card. The larger ones, all of which included popular top-tier players like Ruth, Koufax, Cobb, Jackie, Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio didn't sell. For him money-wise, it was a losing proposition.

What Dean surmised was that though there were thousands of people who walked in and out of the convention center, only of few of them really made the jump from the idea of collecting cards to the idea of collecting art/fine art/illustrations/whatever. In other words, they were more comfortable putting their money into those cards - things that have many rubrics to determine their value - than they were with what I was doing. I did end up agreeing with him to an extent, but I also thought a lot of it had to do with the pricing. I'm not necessarily saying that they should have been lower or fairer, but the fact is, I'm well aware that these paintings aren't cheap. Not everyone is in the position to buy them if they want (which I do think sucks). The fact is, they're really a luxury item - I make stuff that people don't need. And that's especially true in a down economy. (Though it's still important for me to reiterate how grateful I am for everyone who likes what I do, whether they can afford an original or not.)

Over the past few years, I've wanted VERY much to exhibit again at the National. Any National. There's been a little bit of a problem with coming up with enough inventory (as that sort of thing does have to cut into the time I spend painting stuff on commission), but then there's also the problem that Dean mentioned. I wish that it all didn't really come down to money for him, but after all, he is my agent, so I guess it should. In the end, I think he just wants to know that if we did get a booth at some point in the near future, that he would be able to break even if nothing else, especially considering the cost of the space, all of the accoutrements within, lodging, food, transportation, and whatever else happens to come up.

Now, fast-forward to present time. Recently, Dean has started selling the small color studies I make in preparation for larger portraits (16" x 20"s and around that size). Any of you who are on his email list probably read about this a few months back. For those who aren't, in summation I do at least one of these sketches for each fully-realized portrait that I paint. In reality, they had always been for my own purposes, just stuff that I would throw in a closet and had no intention to sell. Though, I guess Dean saws the ol' dollar signs in his head and couldn't resist. And, since a number of them have been done that I have yet to turn into the larger pieces, he's been able to offer something pretty unique to his clients. I've included a few examples below:







As you can probably tell, they're rather loose and painterly. I try my best to limit my experimenting on them so that when I get to the final pieces, it's less guesswork. At 5" x 7", they're the smallest things that I create. Additionally, they're also the least expensive - Dean charges $599 for each one.

What I was wondering is whether any of you fellas thought that something like this might be an item that a larger percentage of convention-goers might be interested in. I think that the price-point isn't too bad, especially considering the cost of the larger guys, and the size makes it somewhat comparable to a typical baseball card in stature, so in my mind, that mental jump isn't so far.

My idea was that for an upcoming National, I could try to paint like 200 of them or something like that, and then just see what happens. I know that from Dean's perspective, the goal is to just knock people out with the size and presence of a larger oil painting, but I'm starting to think that for a lot of people there needs to be somewhat of a bridge there.

That idea especially applies since I feel like a lot of people do come to these conventions with a reasonable budget in mind, and perhaps, even a wishlist. I would imagine that no one is thinking that they 'need' something from me like they might need a few high-grade commons for their '54 Bowman set. I guess the hope would be to attract a number of people who would like what they see enough to inquire about purchasing one, and then not completely balking at the price. Granted, I do realize that even $599 is a LOT of money. And of course, there are just a good number of people who have no interest in what I do (which is totally fine).

In the end, do you think that these are items that people could get into in that kind of environment? Is your budget at one of these things at all conducive to that kind of purchase (and that can apply to either before or after you walk the floor and find whatever's on your list), or is that price point even too high for a casual convention attendee?

Any and all thoughts are GREATLY appreciated. You guys rule.

Thanks,

Graig

[whodey14]

Graig,

I am new to your work and think it is quite nice. I will say however as a guy that wouldn't mind dropping thousands at the national wouldn't do so in fine art. I feel like the guy that would buy at 599 or thousands would be a guy far more wealthy. The only way I would see you selling some of them at 599 is if a big collector of a certain player wanted to add something new to there collection. But a common person walking by that has a modest spending limit in mind would opt to purchase some set fillers or a nice autograph like you hinted at. I hope however you make the trip I would love to see them in person next year.

-Adam

[GKreindler]

Hey Adam,

Thanks so much for your insight.

I think that for the most part, you're right. One of the things I deal with constantly is that if a collector has, say, $10,000, is he/she going to buy one of my paintings, or maybe a game-used Campanella bat? Or maybe a really nice high-grade T206 HoFer? I expect to lose that battle nine times out of ten. Actually, more like 19 out of 20. And that's totally cool and understandable. I guess in the end, it really just takes the right kind of person, and then I have to remind myself that not everyone is that right person. And again, I don't mean to insult anyone or criticize - it's just all important stuff that I need to know about my audience, I guess.

And I VERY much hope that you'll be able to see my stuff in person someday, too. Dean has been talking about setting up next year for sure...but he's also been saying that for a few years now, too.

Booooo.

Thanks again for responding.

Graig

[whodey14]

Graig,

Was trying to not put a price on your full scale paintings, was unaware if they were $1,500, $15,000 or $150,000 haha. However using your number of $10,000 a guy who is a card/memorabilia collector on a $10k budget is like you said buying that iconic gamer, card, signature ect. It will take the guy that has everything else or big pockets and a $100k budget for the weekend to buy a $10k painting on a whim. One other thing to keep in mind is it sounds like your full scale paintings are quite large, a card can be put in a box and stored in a very small space where as your paintings take a large financial and space commitment. Hope I have positively influenced you to come to the national! Haha!

-Adam

[GKreindler]

Adam,

Trust me, you didn't need to influence me!

Graig

[YankeeFan]

Graig -

I don't know if the rules of the National would allow it, but what if you ran one or more raffles, like the one done here on N54 recently, while there?

I'm thinking something like $5 or $10 a chance, with a limited number of tickets sold. The prize could be a choice of one of those $599 paintings you mentioned. As you pointed out, the number of people who could or would make a $600 purchase is limited. But everyone there has $5 - $10 bucks to spare.

Depending on the price per ticket you could pick a winner after every 60 or 120 tickets sold, for example. There's a chance you could "sell" a few of those paintings each day that way.

You could also do a "larger" raffle, just like the one done here. $20 per entry and the winner gets a "painted to order" 16 x 20.

I'm sure you and Dean can come up with other workable variations.

[thecatspajamas]

Not speaking from my own experience, but one guy that I know who sets up at the National every year does so more for making contacts and getting leads than for trying to realize sales. He deals primarily in game-used items, and will take some pretty high-end stuff for show, but doesn't necessarily expect to actually sell much at the show. I would think your paintings would be the same way, in that you might not sell many (or any) large pieces at the show, but through lots of hand-shaking and pressing the flesh, would expect to come away with some commissions or at least having made contacts that would yield commissions down the road. As far as the larger pieces go, I really don't think you or Dean should be expecting spur-of-the-moment purchases, as to me, that sort of purchase requires a bit more planning and forethought, not just because of the $ involved, but also because the personal connection with the subject and involvement in its selection seems to be a much more integral part of the process.

On the other hand, if you're looking for something to specifically fund the trip and make it immediately pay for itself, I would think that smaller pieces or something like the forthcoming book (*ahem* any updates there?) would be ideal for bringing to the National as those would fall closer to the spur-of-the-moment purchase category. They would also be much easier for buyers to transport back home than the larger pieces.

That's my 2 cents anyway. (And glancing back at the thread, I see that I'd better go ahead and post this before EVERYTHING gets restated pre-stated in more eloquent fashion )

OT question: What is that little standee/statue thing on the table in the shot from 5 years ago? It looks a lot like the things George Burke used to make for players occasionally (I know, I know, it's the one thing in the photo that is NOT an awesome Kreindler painting, and I'm sure many fists are shaking with utterances of "If he mentions George Burke one more time...")

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

Hey Adam,

Thanks so much for your insight.

I think that for the most part, you're right. One of the things I deal with constantly is that if a collector has, say, $10,000, is he/she going to buy one of my paintings, or maybe a game-used Campanella bat? Or maybe a really nice high-grade T206 HoFer? I expect to lose that battle nine times out of ten. Actually, more like 19 out of 20. And that's totally cool and understandable. I guess in the end, it really just takes the right kind of person, and then I have to remind myself that not everyone is that right person. And again, I don't mean to insult anyone or criticize - it's just all important stuff that I need to know about my audience, I guess.

And I VERY much hope that you'll be able to see my stuff in person someday, too. Dean has been talking about setting up next year for sure...but he's also been saying that for a few years now, too.

Booooo.

Thanks again for responding.

Graig

Graig,
I don't think it's so much the "right type" of person, but the right setting. If I come to a National having saved up to buy a Gehrig autographed photo, the probability is that I would not scrap my plan for a spur of the moment purchase. On the other hand, if I came in with the same amount, with no set plan, just looking to buy whatever strikes my fancy, then your paintings, very definitely, wind up on my short list of contenders.
I don't think it's as simple as the people want the card or bat more, I think it's that people aren't likely to be thinking about buying a painting when they are planning/budgeting for the national.
Mark

[prestigecollectibles]

I first met Graig at the National in Cleveland and although I did not purchase anything at the show I am proud to currently own three paintings and a few studies. Having seen his work in person made it easy for me to make future purchases. Below is a painting of Japanese Hall of Famer Eiji Sawamura he did for me.

[MGHPro]

Graig
Have you considered selling giclees or limited edition prints or lithos ? I would prefer to a have a larger piece that could be a focal point vs a small original .. The studies are great but the details in your larger pieces are awesome .
Matt

[Deertick]

Graig,
I agree with some of the other comments. I do think that is a combination of price point and desire, with the latter being more relevant. HOWEVER, I think the exposure acts as targeted advertising. I have been to several Nationals and many large regionals and each time I went with a budget and a wantlist. That is not to say I haven't purchased some things way off of my radar going in, but those items were in the minority. But the most important aspect that I think relates to you and your (awesome!) work is I have seen items and made the purchases at a later date from vendors that I have met there that otherwise I would have never been exposed to (pre-internet).
While we at Net54 are all familiar (and covetous) of your pieces, someone viewing them for the first time may take a little time to justify/decide/budget for their purchase. This obviously doesn't bode well for the balance book at the end of the National, but I believe may pay off in spades for the future.

edited to add: What Scott said.

[Lordstan]

Wow Graig,
That is a really interesting question.
For me personally, I would rather save up to get a bigger one than spend $599 for the small ones. For that reason the smaller ones wouldn't likely be something I would buy.

In a more general sense, I think the problem is that, in my experience, most people have a plan for the national. What I mean is this. They have saved up a set sum of money and come in with a specific set of items they are looking for. Unfortunately for you, fine art isn't likely to high on the list of things that people come looking to buy. A painting of your caliber is a large enough purchase that I think only the wealthy would be able to do as a spur of the moment thing. Most of us need to budget for it ahead of time.

The small paintings are a very different thing. I think that there definitely would be more of a market for the $599 paintings than the big ones in that setting. I could see where $600 would be an amount that a much higher percentage of attendees could justify taking out of their budget for a spur of the moment buy.
Having the larger paintings there serve 2 purposes. First is to create future commissions. The second is to create buzz that would make someone who can't afford the larger purchase excited about the opportunity to purchase a smaller one at a much more modest price.

Mark

[bobfreedman]

Greg, while I understand your situation, I do believe that you should attend the Nationals and here is why,
I never would have known who you were prior to meeting you at the Nationals five years ago and had I not met you, I would have never seen your work in person. Don't get me wrong, your pictures that you post of your paintings are great but, there is nothing like seeing them in person. You cannot overstate how important word of mouth is either i.e. Friends telling friends and the publicity you receive from being there etc...

Have you thought about possibly partnering with a few of the companies attending the Nationals and placing your artwork at several of them and work with them on consignment? Also, maybe do a raffle or two at the Nationals working with Mike Berkus (the head honcho that runs the show)?

I do not know how much it costs you and Dean to attend and I am sure you have calculated how many of the small paintings you would have to sell to break even, so I can't tell you if I think it is feasible but, I do believe those painting would sell better than the more expensive and larger painting.

Thanks and again, I hope you can attend, IMHO

[Scott Garner]

FWIW, I totally agree with many of the points that Mark and Bob just posted.
Additionally, I believe that the value of you attending The National is for you the artist to "cast a larger net" which will reach collectors that still do not know about your incredible work.

I must admit that I commissioned a painting with you before I ever saw your work in person. As a person that really appreciates painting per se (I love many different styles), I believe that this opportunity would be huge, plus I really like you as a person having worked with you now.

I hope to see you in Cleveland this year, although my time there is going to be very brief due to other obligations.

Keep up the incredible work.
All my best,
Scott

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

Hey all,

So, I had a thought recently that I've been wrestling around with. I brought it up to the 800lb gorilla (Dean) today, and after our conversation, it seems like the match has gotten tougher.


We had a booth that was filled with larger paintings from my inventory, and there was even enough room for me to set up my portable easel and get some painting done while Dean sat around and handled other stuff (probably porn-related).

Graig - your work is incredible. While I will never own one of your large pieces, I would love to. I agree with what everyone is saying re: exposure, contacts, leads, etc.

My question is.....why do you need an agent especially given the fact you do not intend to do pieces that require licensing, etc? Your comments about Dean (above) lead me to believe you don't exactly love the guy. Am I reading them wrong?

Good luck in the future!

[GKreindler]

Hey everybody,

Thanks again for all of your thoughtful responses to this thread. And, I VERY much appreciate the kind things you've said about me and my work.

Let me also say that I'm glad I read Frank's comment about nude Hall of Famers after I woke up the next morning - a frightening thought, indeed.

Gary, I do like the idea of a class thing. I have a feeling that the logistics would be a bit complicated to set up, so I think I'd have to leave that to Dean, but in the end, I feel like it could really be a great experience. I know that at some engagements, Charles Fazzino does workshops with kids where they're able to create their own pieces of Pop Art, so he would be a great person to chat with about it, I'm sure. I would just find myself wondering if the big-wigs at the National would even allow that kind of thing in their space?

Mike, the studies are actually available to anyone at any time. I have a bunch listed on my website now, plus a few more that will go up in a few days. I usually just end up putting them on the website as I get them out of storage. I'm pretty sure Dean allows other portrait studies to be commissioned as well, but since what we have in possession were initially done for my own purposes and not to be sold, I think he wanted to charge $699 for those.

Rob, I actually do like Dean very much. I think it might come across that I don't through some of my comments, but I guess it's just my way of giving him sh*t (even though I don't think he reads these message boards). He really is a great guy and a wonderful agent, and I do consider him a friend. Of course, like any business relationship, there can be disagreements here and there, but we're definitely in this journey together, and hopefully the long haul. So yeah, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that we don't have a good thing going. (Does that sound weird to anybody else?)

Also, it's not so much that I'm not creating images that require licensing. Technically, we could license all of the images that I paint, but it comes down to getting everything in order legally to do so, and then of course, how to do it so that it doesn't diminish my 'brand.' I think when it comes to the whole reproduction thing, the latter is the absolute most important thing to me.

I think in the end, that's why I agreed to let Dean sell the smaller studies. At first, like I mentioned before, they were just made as prep-work. I hadn't intended on ever selling them, as they've just been sitting in a storage space for years (which constantly gets restocked, as I continue to do them). But the fact is, I do like being able to offer them up for sale, especially to those who might not be able to afford a larger painting, especially since the whole print thing is seemingly a far-off destination. The fact is, you guys have all been so wonderful and supportive of me on this whole journey, and it's nice to be able to feel like I'm giving something back. I feel like the raffle was an attempt at that idea, as well.

When it comes down to it, I just don't want anyone to think that my part in all of this is completely based on what I'm hoping can be achieved financially. Of course it does have to play somewhat of a role in my decision-making, but the main priority for me is to do the best work that I possibly can. And when it comes to my relationship with Dean, we're both trying to find as many ways to get it to you guys in as many tasteful ways as possible.

Regardless, I will definitely be exhibiting at the National at some point in the future, with all sizes of work available. And like I did before Cleveland in '09, I'll be looking forward to the experience like nobody's business.

Thanks again, y'all.

Graig

[stlcardinalsfan]

Graig,
You probably don't remember, but I did see your work and briefly met you at the national in Cleveland. I was very impressed by your work and eventually commissioned a painting the next year. Seeing your work in person and a referral from a mutual friend (Ben) helped me realize that I wanted to purchase a painting. Furthermore, talking with you at last year at the national makes me even more proud to own the Gehrig painting.
I have set up at a National as well and did do okay financially, but the exposure far outweighed the immediate financial gain. I met many fellow collectors who have proven to be very good contacts.
In my opinion, your booth also needs to boast about your accolades. You are very talented and your art speaks well, but people need to know that you art hangs in various museums, usps published your paintings, and TOM Brokaw endorses your art work etc... People are followers, I think this will also persuade people to buy at the show or later commission. As I sit on my paddle at one of the two live auctions at the national (that will realize 2-5 million in 100 lots) people Do have money to spend. You are the best sports artist out there people have to see you to realize that.
I've rambled too much but remind me to share a few ideas that might allow you to get a foot in the door with the current players. Jamie

[MikeMankin]

Craig, will these studies or smaller paintings ever be available to purchase without attending the National? I think the $500-$600 price range is very doable for not only National attendees, but many others of us out here.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Craig - I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned. One of the most effective things I have seen at a convention (comic book) was an artist who displayed multiple high quality images (same size) of his work through various stages. The images were displayed chronologically from beginning to end. One of the good things about his approach is that people stopped to look at the images and this have him a chance to chat them up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[billyb]

Jamie and Alex,

Both great ideas. Along with Alex's idea, just a short spiel about the process that creates the longevity of your paintings. in one of your threads, you explained the different stages just setting up the paintings, which was very interesting. The quality of your work that, even before one drop of paint hits the canvas, was very interesting. Don't give them too much to read, but just a short paragraph at a few stages would be good.

[LEHR]

Graig, just my $0.02.

First, even if you don't sell a thing at a National in my opinion the exposure is priceless. I had never heard of you until someone posted photos of you and your paintings on another sports card board. Since then I've spent a great deal of time following your work and you are by far my favorite sports artist, period.

Second, To help people afford your work have you ever considered letting people set up an account with Dean where smaller payments could be made over time? Say for instance someone could submit an image to you and an initial $500 deposit which secures the image to be painted for that person unless they default on the account. Then, the person could make say $500 quarterly payments to there account until the painting is paid for. You could even not start the painting until the person has paid at least half of the agreed upon amount. If the person doesn't make additional payments or pay on time the "account" could be cancelled, the image freed up for someone else to select and you/Dean could keep whatever had been paid to the account up to that point (zero refunds). This idea may sound silly to you or others but in my opinion it would allow far more people to afford your work.

Just a thought. Take care.

[UnVme7]

I haven't read the entire thread, but have you thought about doing a raffle? Each person throws in $20(or whatever you put it at) and once you hit $1,000 you do a drawing. Whoever the winner is gets to choose what image they want for the painting.

An affordable way for those that don't have the money to buy one of your paintings, and great exposure. I'd be interested in that.

Something along those lines...

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

I haven't read the entire thread, but have you thought about doing a raffle? Each person throws in $20(or whatever you put it at) and once you hit $1,000 you do a drawing. Whoever the winner is gets to choose what image they want for the painting.

An affordable way for those that don't have the money to buy one of your paintings, and great exposure. I'd be interested in that.

Something along those lines...

Nate,
They did that acouple months ago m