Vintagecardpricing - Billing warning.

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Posted By: arcade

Many of you may recall that after a lot of discussion and self promotion, Bobby offered members of this forum the ability to receive a refund on their membership to Vintage Card Pricing. This was instead of a free trial period that some of us requested.

Well I took him up on that offer, and it didn't take me long to evaluate his service and see it was not suited for me or my collecting tastes. About 90% of my searches came up empty or with too little data to be worthwhile.

His welcome email came on September 3, 2006 8:54am, and he was able to respond to my cancellation request by 6:56 pm of the same day. Should have been cut and dry with a reverse charge, right?

Six months later, I notice the VCD charge on my account is apparently reoccurring, and my account was never canceled. I contacted Bobby today, and he responded telling me I've been a member since September, and there was never a trial period. Hmm. Either way, I was under the impression my account was canceled when requested, and I haven't signed in to use the site since that time.

I do feel the need to make this issue public, because a) he indirectly used this site to solicit business, and b) I'm figuring this was a genuine mistake on his part, which might prompt others just to keep an eye on the billing - just in case.

I wish Bobby well with the project, and hope that this was a fluke incident. From what I can gather, Bobby aims to run a professional site, that will become a standard tool in the future...and that's why I trust he'll see to it that this error is corrected with a full refund for any unauthorized past charges.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Warning??

At some point one has to take responsibility for his/her own acts or in this case omissions. You didn't notice the reoccuring (sic) charge for six months!

And just so I further understand this, you gave the site a ten hour chance?

And finally, at least for me as I'll let others wade in now, you spoke with Bobby just this morning and felt the need to post this without giving him the time to work it out?

Steve Murray

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Steve that you should have taken this matter up privately with Bobby instead of embarrassing him on the board. Bobby is a really good guy with a great product that is still in its infancy. He is adding prices to his database on a daily basis. And I am sure he will work with you to resolve this matter.

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Posted By: Dave

In my own experience anyway the last thing Bobby is trying to do is take anybody for money undue. He has personally helped me with some things where money wasn't even involved.

Dave

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

I have to agree with Steve M's opinion here. You sent an e-mail to cancel 6 months ago. Never heard from Bobby, never got a cancellation or return e-mail, never checked your credit card charges, (thats just plain ****** anyway), you did nothing to follow up, and now its all Bobby's fault, and lets go public with it??? Thats just wrong.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well let me see... I want to cancel. But don't cancel me if you can sneak in a charge on my credit card and I don't notice... 'cause if I don't notice it, then I didn't really intend to cancel. Come to think of it, ANYTHING you decide to put on my credit card is fine with me, as long as I don't notice. Sell me a 1989 Topps set in vg condition for $2500, fine with me as long as I don't notice...


Nonsense. A cancellation is exactly that. And unauthorized charges after only one cancellation notice are still unauthorized. Not noticing them doesn't validate them.

I agree that this matter should not have been published here, but that's because Bobby should have said he was sorry and reversed the charges. And you should have noticed before 6 months, but that doesn't mean you've agreed to them. Golly, if I steal Barry's newspaper every Saturday out of his front yard (you guys have front yards up there?), each theft is a crime, not just the one he finally notices.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with what the judge said. And I don't think Bobby is a thief, either; I think it was just a screw-up.

And Judge, if you want to steal my newspapers you'll have to get past two very angry doormen and an overfed, barking shih-tzu on the other side of the front door...

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Posted By: Steve M.

I agree that "failure to notice" does not validate the charges. If the service was cancelled the provider should process a refund.

What I object to is airing this on this board without, apparently, having made any reasonable effort to resolve it offline.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- the NY Times and Wall Street Journal are outside my door every morning...but I wouldn't call it a front yard. It's just a cement walkway attached to the sidewalk.

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Posted By: Joe D.

That was very well said.

I didn't quite see it your way, until your post.


For me - In short: this shouldn't have been posted here in the first place (bad form by edacra). I am sure Bobby would have handled this correctly if given the time. Wouldn't it be easy for Bobby to see if edacra is being truthful and had not logged in during the six months? Should be.

Edacra didn't notice the charges on his statement - that does not justify the charges. Should he be more diligent in checking his credit card statement? Of course. But again, that doesn't justify the charges.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

We find it difficult to believe that someone whose instincts are so petty as to
take what is clearly a private misunderstanding over a nominal amount of
money, (less than $100) public could review his credit card bill for
six consecutive months and miss the same charge.

Assuming you are not sight impaired, you have no excuses.

We also wonder what it is that you collect that is so rare that there weren't
any relevant items for which Vintage Card prices published auction results.

In fact, if you had taken a moment to undertaken minimum due diligence you
could determine the extent to which VCP had price information that was
of interest to you.

Our experience with Bobby has been 100% positive. He is working diligently to
build the platform for what could be a substantial company. He is responsive
to users' comments and quick to make an adjustment when it is necessary.


Finally, we wonder if you ever visited VCP during the six months following your
10 hour cancellation. We also wonder how many magazine subscriptions,
cable tv services and other subscription-based services you have cancelled
and found that six months later you were still being invoiced.

Tell us, if you can about the experiences you have had with the publishers
and MSO's after you reminded them that you cancelled six months ago.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: mark

For $10 a month, how can you say its not worth it. It has saved me 10x that so far.

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Posted By: Steve M.

By way of full disclosure I signed on for a year and will renew when it comes up. I have saved hundreds of dollars.

One example is that there was a card offered on ebay with a BIN that I was ready to pay. Checking VCP I found that the actual card had sold two months earlier for $1,000 less. That knowledge enabled me to pass on the BIN and to make an offer that was more in line with the market.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I should have added that I was not implying that Bobby was a thief. I apologize for that unfair, unintended implication. But I would be if I ripped off those newspapers.

Bobby should reverse the charges. Then "Arcade" should praise him here for doing it.

And I'll stay out of NYC so the papers will be safe. So it's thin pizza up there...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Our Neopolitan slices, now $2 a pop, are the best Some fine brick oven around, too (one famous one in my neighborhood)

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

It was a surprise to see this post after just waking up and turning on my computer first thing this morning.

Yes I offered free trials to the members of this board when we launched in June of last year and told them to sign up as a limited non-paying member and contact me and I would upgrade them to VIP for 2 weeks. This process would not involve any person entering any credit card information at all.

edcara aka Barak XXXXX signed up for the service on 9/3/06 as a full paying member and never contacted me until last night 9:38PM. I never knew of any request or dissatisfaction with our services that we provide and it was new to me. So far we have had very few people cancel their memberships and we always send out a letter to verify. Quan was one such member who did this and has recently signed up again. I am on the computer 15-18 hours a day and respond to everyones requests as promptly as humanly possible. If I have made an error then I will honor it and refund Mr. Barak XXXXX his money.

It would of been nice if he would of given me at least a chance to work something out before he made this post on the board at 5:52 AM, which by the way is shortly before 3AM where I live.

I am sorry that this was brought out here is a public format and I feel he is trying to damage my company with his statements.

edited last name 2nd time

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Not a way to wake up... sorry about that, Bobby.

Maybe he gets the charges reversed and he posts one fine apology, admitting that he should have tried to haggle it out with you first.


And maybe Leon will sneak over to Shiner Texas, where that wonderful Shiner Bock beer is brewed. I think I could choke down even NY or Chicago pizza if I had some of that fine Texas beer to wash it down.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, NYC has a ton of problems but pizza is not one of them. Pizza, steaks and bagels are top-notch here (as well as the more sophisticated, overpriced restaurants in the world). I remember going back to visit Duke for a basketball game a few years back and the wife and I were unable to find a damn decent bagel in the entire Durham/Chapel Hill area. Drove us nuts. You are officially invited to the NYC Dinner Thread III Dinner in which we will find you the best pizza you have ever tasted.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Jeff, I humbly accept your gracious offer. I'll try to behave while in your great city, the epicenter of civilization. Now I just have to figure out how to get away for a few days... If I solve that, I'll let you guys know in advance. I'd rather make it to one of your dinners than see a Broadway show.

Frank.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

just an unfortunate misunderstanding that perhaps could have been handled better. A hiccup in the world of commerce. I don't believe anything was intentional or malicious here, and I'm sure it can all be worked out.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, I just came back from the M & M store on Broadway with my two 2 1/2 year old boys and I can say with great certainty that NYC is certainly the epicenter of civilization. Or something else, perhaps. As for the dinner v. a Broadway show, my brother is a ticket broker for NYC events and I haven't seen a show in like 3 years. But I'm a Philistine so it's not too surprising. And I'm sure you'll behave yourself while you're here -- if not, I can guarantee you the finest criminal defense attorney in the city to advocate for you -- and he also has a minor working knowledge of vintage baseball cards!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- I usually get my pizza from the local joint around the corner, or splurge occasionally for Patsy's (they changed the name, I forgot the new one) brick oven under the Brooklyn Bridge. Maybe a good Manhattan pizza establishment would be a good choice for our Spring get together.

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Posted By: arcade

I never called Bobby a thief either. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, and my post states I believe this was an error.

However, he has also just stated that I never contacted him until last night. This is false, and concerning.

Note my Private Message history from Vintage Card Pricing.

Message Title Sender Date
Read Msg Your cancel Bobby [ Block ] Sep 3 2006, 06:56 PM
Read Msg Welcome Bobby [ Block ] Sep 3 2006, 08:54 AM



Your cancel, Sep 3 2006, 06:56 PM
Advanced Member

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 60
Member No.: 3
Joined: 15-May 06

[QUOTE]Hi Bobby,

Thanks for the note. Unfortunately, I'm thinking I'd actually like to cancel my account. Very few of my searches are coming up with results.

Thanks for your understanding.

Barak

[QUOTE]Barak,

Barak,

Taking note of your cancellaiton...what is it you are searching for?

Bobby

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Posted By: arcade

Here is the email I received...

"Barak,

You would need to send me this email you claim to have and I made this
deal on Net 54 in June when we launched not September. I also told them
to sign up as a limited member and notify me via email and I would
upgrade them for the duration. Never once did I say to use a credit card
for a free offer. I will cancel out your account but will not be issuing
a refund,

I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you
would keep the membership for the time being.

Regards,

Bobby"


I NEVER said I would keep my membership. Again, he can verify the PM he sent me, and verify my usage on the site.

I guess my instincts were correct in taking this public. Bobby has the chance to resolve a simple matter that many here have already deemed to be petty. If he wants to claim I didn't follow instructions properly, or his offer to forum members was for a limited time (though this wasn't stated in the thead), then fine, that jusitfies one single charge of $9.99.

I'll be disputing these charges.

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Posted By: Brian

The customer is always right (even when they are wrong)...

Take it to private emails please.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

This is not the place to settle private disputes... especially at 5:52 in the morning.

Frank

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Posted By: Cobby33

$100 is a "nominal" amount? Anybody who truly believes that, is free to let me charge their credit card for that nominal amount, monthly.

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Posted By: edacra

This forum is filled with private disputes....and I haven't flamed Bobby once in this thread. In fact, the brunt of criticism has been towards me.

Currently, the terms and conditions of his site state you have to contact them and request a cancellation directly. Six months later I'm still being charged, and he has no record that he verified the cancellation I requested. Worse, he is refusing to take accountability for his own billing error which he has the ability to verify via PM's on his site, and my usage. Again, I was solicited through this site, and I felt it important to bring this type of billing issue to the forum so as to alert future members that when they do happen to cancel membership, they might continue to get billed even after a confirmation from Bobby.


This is the final result from Bobby:

Barak,

I don't know how you live with your self with the spewing of lies on a
public board and from the looks of it you only hurt yourself in the eyes
of everyone for being an idiot.

I will refund you 5 months of membership dues you need to give me the
name and address you would like the payment to be sent.

And congratulations you are officially the first person we have banned
from the website.

Regards,

Bobby Binder
VintageCardPrices

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Assuming all emails are verifiable, I think Bobby has shown a certain 'two-facedness' in dealing with this disagreement. It always bugs me when people are so polite in public and yet talketh the trash in private.
I'll hold out from taking up the services of vintage pricing for a while.


Daniel

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Posted By: Joe D.

has the potential of becoming a NYC Dinner Thread.

so, now that Frank is coming - when and where is it

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Posted By: barrysloate

We were suggesting earlier a good Italian restaurant with some top line pizza, maybe something a little easier on the pocketbook.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Barry, you're kidnapping this thread! If you want to talk about your junkie punk rockers, the Kinks, do it on your own time! Can't we get back to bashing each other in private and then in public about the vintagecardprices service? And you're jamming this Italian restaurant stuff down our throats! (Trying hard to turn this into the nascent NYC Dinner Thread III, aka Son of the Son of the NYC Dinner Thread)

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Actions are louder than words.. Reading Bobby's tone in the e-mail says it all. SHould have been handled through e-mails first with the board being the last measure. I've been guilty in coming forward on the board without given time for people to respond. I currently do not subscribe to any pricing services. I'm glad I collect stuff that SMR does not list and shows up rarely. I have never met Bobby.. But one word of advice... Don't sweat the small stuff as it is a small market where most people know each other..You are really selling a service right? That service cost you lots of money to set up... But in the service business your reputation is everything... Right? Overacheive on customer service... I would be curious to know his user history as to how much he actually used the service???? That might say a lot to....

JC

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- there are so many disparate things going on on this thread that everything you mentioned is applicable, from personal attacks to pepperoni pizza!

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Posted By: Matt E.

No problems here. I used to be on month to month and I told Bobby I wanted to cancel and pay annually. He told me the exact date in Feb 07 he would end the monthly billing charge. Everything was done properly and am now good to go for 12 mos.

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Posted By: Dave

I think Bobby is taking a hit here undeserved. We are seeing one person's account of the emails...not all of them obviously. Bobby is a good guy...and a fair guy. I was paying month by month as well, my monthly subscription ended something like Dec 5...told Bobby I was cancelling and not to renew on that credit card because I was getting a yearly subscription for christmas from a relative....Bobby had no problem cancelling my card...and even gave me the rest of the month of December for free, as a "Merry Christmas".....his reputation as far as I'm concerned with customers is A.O.K.


Dave

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Nice to see that this thread has grown and morphed into another thread which is a typical NET54 trend.

I just find it funny that Mr. Barak posts these things that are false 8 minutes after he called me on my cell phone. I agreed to give him back 5 months of membership dues and did not appreciate him posting this in this forum and told him was not needed that this could of been handled in a better way. And then after getting basically free use of a service for 6 months which he did use frequently because I have his log in records to the site is still bad mouthing me in a public forum. Where is the justice and beginning to think that this is coming from another place that I will not mention here.

I appreciate all the people that have come forward saying what you have because I really beleive in customer service. Most people are surprised on how fast we respond to everything and if we can't do it right then we at least send them an email telling them so.

Anyone who knows me will discover that I am honest and straight forward and bend over backward to help anyone that needs it. I have done everything in my power to make this guy happy and there is just no doing so.

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Posted By: howard

Wow. Bobby, are you really on the computer for 15 to 18 hours a day? I would go mad.

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Posted By: Steve M.

but you can't leave it there. Share his usage record with the board.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Yes I am on the computer working on the site that much almost everyday. Between doing auctions and adding images and new sets the work is endless.

I am not going to stoop down to Mr. Barak's level and show you anything we track the last 50 log ins for every member.

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Posted By: Steve M.

and I don't want this thread to continue any more than you but you did open the door. Its not a matter of stooping down to anyones level its a matter of credibility. If the poster has done as you say and you can apparently prove, lets lay the cards on the table. Leaving it at your "last" leaves too many open questions.

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Posted By: mark

I'm a member of VCP and very happy with the site, keep up the good work. You are bound to get a few unhappy people, just go with the flow.

Your site can only get better.

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Posted By: jonathan davis

... what's the point ...

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Posted By: edacra

All I have asked, plain and simple, is for the unauthorized charges made by your company be reversed to my card.

"I just find it funny that Mr. Barak posts these things that are false 8 minutes after he called me on my cell phone."

Huh? Bobby, I called your business line listed on your website right after I made my last post. I figured it would be best to clear up any miscommunication over the phone, and I actually did offer an apology to you if you thought my intention was merely to insult you, and reiterated I merely wanted a refund.... but this is enough. The benefit of the doubt is fading fast here. You know deep down if you're being ethical or not. You know the truth. I haven't used your site, and you slipped up and forgot to cancel my account as promised on September 3rd.

This isn't personal. I haven't made a single personal insult to you, ever.

Your system system requires personal interaction to request a cancellation. When I contacted the sites general business email address to resolve a billing issue at an odd hour, it was mentioned as a personal inconvenience. When I called your business number listed on the website, you answered it, before excusing yourself because you were in the middle of a Birthday Party. Frankly, I'm not interested in this personal interaction. We're discussing an accounting issue here. It's not a personal attack, nor should it be perceived as an infringement or inconvenience.


Please do share my sign in log, Bobby. I have suggested it. You already breached the privacy agreement on your website when you posted my full name.

You won't see a log-in between September and Today unless you have fabricated it.

In the meantime, why send me a refund by check? Why no just reverse the charge through my credit card on file and be done with me once and for all?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Barak,

Just take the check. I agree with most people here, I would have worked it out with Bobby in personal communique. I'm sure the matter would have been resolved as everything I've heard about Bobby is pretty positive.


Bobby,

Most everyone knows you here so you're name is very public (that's a good thing for promoting a good business as yours). Barak does have a point, you shouldn't have outed any personal information on the board.


Barry,

I wish I could make one of your NY get togethers. I'll let you know the next time I'm in NYC with some free time.

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Posted By: CN

Bobby I don't subscribe to your service but I was going to next month. Not that it probably will change my mind but since your opened the door I think just to show your credibility you must show Barak's 50 uses of your site so we can put this matter to rest. CN

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

After reading and following many post like this. I kinda feel sorry for people running a business in our hobby who make post on our board. No matter what.. You will be shot down in public. On the flip side.. The board exposes many problems and thru the "Mob" mentality it gets fixed. I'm sure there are two sides to every story.. But in the end.. Both parties will take a blow to thier rep. If Bobby did not reply on this issue the thread would already be dead... Let do a poll on in general on issues and let the market decide who to deal with and who to stay away from...

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Posted By: CN

Why do a poll Bobby of vintage card pricing states that he can prove that Barak has used his service approximately 50 times. Just post the proof so we can put this matter to bed. It is all about credibility. CN

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

This whole thing has probably gone way farther then it should have. I say take the issue off the board, work it out and move on. Life is short.

BTW, I've seen a few food posts, but no music yet. Barry?

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Posted By: Steve M.

as I'm off to bed.

Bobby did NOT say that Barak had 50 hits. He said that they can track each members last 50 uses. I don't care if its 5 or 10 or 50. If Barak did in fact use the service after September 3 ANY number of times I want to know it.