Check this Joe Jackson auto out

[mighty bombjack]

With a nice Pete auto to boot

This is what I call a Frankencard. Damn.

http://pristineauction.com/auctions/...ails/id/69680/

[yanks12025]

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever seen. How can you authenticate something with two letters.

[Big Dave]

What a joke ......PSA ....pretty stupid authentication .....DNA ...... don't know authenticaters .....

PSA....please stop authenticating

[jgmp123]

WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THAT PIECE OF CRAP!! Shame on anyone involved in making that cluster...

[ibuysportsephemera]

What is crazy is that there are actually 10 bids and it is up to almost $2,500.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

What a joke ......PSA ....pretty stupid authentication .....DNA ...... don't know authenticaters .....

PSA....please stop authenticating

Why are you so sure it is fake?? Can you please offer some thoughts other than Psa is wrong?

[packs]

Its a J. It could be anyone's J. There isn't enough there to ever be "right."

[Big Dave]

Everybody knows that is his sister's autograph....Joe actually used an "e" at the end of his name.

[travrosty]

its a cut from this auction, they are still making assumptions that it is legit because it accompanies two others autographs. but that is psa style of doing things. its not enough of an autograph to authenticate. you have to authenticate each autograph.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotIdNo=37052

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

That has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever seen. How can you authenticate something with two letters.

++

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Why are you so sure it is fake?? Can you please offer some thoughts other than Psa is wrong?

PSA has to prove that they are right. How did they do that with that two letter squiggle?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

PSA has to prove that they are right. How did they do that with that two letter squiggle?

Perhaps they have proof it is right Richard. All you do is bash psa and jsa on here man. It is really getting tiresome. You obviously have a axe to grind and it is personal. You call them the alphabet guys, talk about tombs.. etc etc. Do you charge for authenticating?? If you think it is bad, prove it. PERIOD

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Everybody knows that is his sister's autograph....Joe actually used an "e" at the end of his name.

REALLY?? Everybody knows that?? He was illiterate for God's sake. You don't think through the process he might have mixed it up a bit?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

PSA has to prove that they are right. How did they do that with that two letter squiggle?

In my opinion, PSA does not have to prove it is right. It is their "opinion" it is good, and whomever buys it has to be able to trust PSA. It is still a buyer beware market 1000%!

[Fuddjcal]

the stupidest most ridiculous thing I've ever seen...and it's a HALF of a "J".

Having their name attached to that drec, authentic or not, only knocks "the alphabets" down another rung.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

in my opinion, psa does not have to prove it is right. It is their "opinion" it is good, and whomever buys it has to be able to trust psa. It is still a buyer beware market 1000%!

true that.

[Big Dave]

PSA and JSA don't get bashed just for being PSA & JSA......they get bashed for their incompetence, their know it all attitude, their inability to know basic authentication procedures, their authentication of laser prints, items manufactured after the death of players, autographs were their are no known exemplers, wife, ghost, batboy, managers, etc...etc. Just their pure incompetence for being...as they state...the world's largest authentication company....and by implied reference...the best.

Of course....a lot of people just think they suck...period.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

PSA and JSA don't get bashed just for being PSA & JSA......they get bashed for their incompetence, their know it all attitude, their inability to know basic authentication procedures, their authentication of laser prints, items manufactured after the death of players, autographs were their are no known exemplers, wife, ghost, batboy, managers, etc...etc. Just their pure incompetence for being...as they state...the world's largest authentication company....and by implied reference...the best.

Of course....a lot of people just think they suck...period.

+1

How many barely literate people could there have been in the early 1900's with a name starting with "J"? IT HAS TO BE SHOELESS JOE!

[David Atkatz]

The partial signature was cut from the back of an envelope--sent to Jackson--upon which Jackson "practiced" signing--it contained two complete signatures, as well as the partial. It had been sold at auction (Heritage) for $45,000, and had been authenticated by PSA.


Cutting up that envelope was a crime. Without the association with the Jackson envelope, that "Jo" is worthless.

[travrosty]

they authenticate by association, thats what i find disturbing. because the cert says it matches exemplars, and Mr. Atkatz is right, if you send that in all by itself, it wouldnt get the cert, or at least i hope it wouldn't.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

PSA and JSA don't get bashed just for being PSA & JSA......they get bashed for their incompetence, their know it all attitude, their inability to know basic authentication procedures, their authentication of laser prints, items manufactured after the death of players, autographs were their are no known exemplers, wife, ghost, batboy, managers, etc...etc. Just their pure incompetence for being...as they state...the world's largest authentication company....and by implied reference...the best.

Of course....a lot of people just think they suck...period.

With the pure volume of sigs authenticated out there(by psa and jsa), they are bound to make mistakes just like everyone else. It is not an exact science. I am pretty sure that the "experts" on here bashing them have made mistakes too and taken money doing it. Actually, I think examples were even posted on here before. Maybe one should ask themselves how they had proven items authentic that were in fact not?? I wonder if those same "experts" were given a chance to authenticate the same volume, and say psa or jsa hired a sorry soul to spend all of his/her free time to look for their mistakes(or potential mistakes), if the percentage of mistakes would be lower. I would bet NOT. Collectors.. be careful what you ask for is all I gotta say. This particular piece, was part of a lot(which David shared). This is obviously a variable. So for those who think "how can psa authenticate a 2 letters".. well there is your answer. I bet you think it is impossible to give an OPINION of TY in a Ty Cobb letter too huh??? Ridiculous..

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they authenticate by association, thats what i find disturbing. because the cert says it matches exemplars, and Mr. Atkatz is right, if you send that in all by itself, it wouldnt get the cert, or at least i hope it wouldn't.

It is a F N OPINION TRAVIS. You gauge everything available and form one. Do you refuse to give an opinion or buy something when you have not seen the person sign it??? So they have exemplars and it was on a piece by association. How is that disturbing??? These are two facts that were available to them to form an OPINION. Also, how do you know they were the only variables?
This is Travis right? Sometimes I am not sure as your writing styles seem to vary from time to time.

Signing off for now..

[JimStinson]

I thought it was a picture of a butterfly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv5woNs9WRE

[Big Dave]

I stand by what I stated Ben......and these reasons are valid and have been proven numerous times. Just because they may take in more then they can handle...it is no excuse for their inability to get it right. If they can't take the time on each item that is required for a professional and correct assessment....then they should hire more people...cut down on their acceptance....or go out of business. It's not like they just started this...they have been at it for 13 years.

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

The partial signature was cut from the back of an envelope--sent to Jackson--upon which Jackson "practiced" signing--it contained two complete signatures, as well as the partial. It had been sold at auction (Heritage) for $45,000, and had been authenticated by PSA.


Cutting up that envelope was a crime. Without the association with the Jackson envelope, that "Jo" is worthless.

I agree. What a shame. Turned a nice piece of memorabilia into a piece of ....
Disgusting.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

I agree. What a shame. Turned a nice piece of memorabilia into a piece of ....
Disgusting.

There is little doubt the other two signatures will show up as separate cuts as well. Three Jacksons for the price of one...

[thecatspajamas]

You mean 2.2 for the price of one...

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

There is little doubt the other two signatures will show up as separate cuts as well. Three Jacksons for the price of one...

While most of us will agree that it's a travesty this was done, they forked out the 48K+, so they can do with it what they want.

[GrayGhost]

Card looks like crap.

[39special]

It looks worse than crap.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by mschwade

While most of us will agree that it's a travesty this was done, they forked out the 48K+, so they can do with it what they want.

Legally, yes, of course. But it's still wrong.

As collectors, we are merely caretakers. These artifacts existed before we were born, and they'll still be around--if we do our jobs--when we're gone.

The argument "He bought it, so he can do whatever he wants," is bullshit.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

In my opinion, PSA does not have to prove it is right. It is their "opinion" it is good, and whomever buys it has to be able to trust PSA. It is still a buyer beware market 1000%!

My problem with this statement is that most people don't think that they are getting just an "opinion", they feel that they are getting a guarantee when they get something authenticated.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

PSA and JSA don't get bashed just for being PSA & JSA......they get bashed for their incompetence, their know it all attitude, their inability to know basic authentication procedures, their authentication of laser prints, items manufactured after the death of players, autographs were their are no known exemplers, wife, ghost, batboy, managers, etc...etc. Just their pure incompetence for being...as they state...the world's largest authentication company....and by implied reference...the best.

Of course....a lot of people just think they suck...period.

+++

And add authentication of autopen signatures to your list of screwups.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Legally, yes, of course. But it's still wrong.

As collectors, we are merely caretakers. These artifacts existed before we were born, and they'll still be around--if we do our jobs--when we're gone.

The argument "He bought it, so he can do whatever he wants," is bullshit.

I'm not saying it's right, believe me, I hate seeing such a beautiful letter and envelope cut up. He owns it though, and it's his legal right to do what he wants.

Navarro gets his rookie cards signed, a lot of the card guys don't agree with him, but it's his right also (and for the record, as an autograph guy, I like that Navarro does that.)

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Navarro gets his rookie cards signed, a lot of the card guys don't agree with him, but it's his right also (and for the record, as an autograph guy, I like that Navarro does that.)

I resemble that remark

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by thenavarro

I resemble that remark

And resemble it well!!

[Burrguana]

Shoeless Joe Jackson Signatures are never pretty, but they sure are worth owning. They demand pretty big bucks at auction.

[packs]

Is it really a signature if a guy just writes out some partial letters from his name? If I had an HO written by Honus Wagner is that a signature? What about a C from a Cobb signature? I should start cutting my signatures into first and last and double my sales.

[Burrguana]

shoeless Joe collectors wont care.

[JimStinson]

This sounds crazy but its true... but over 100 years ago, Collectors/dealers would take a George Washington letter or a Abe Lincoln letter or a Thomas Jefferson letter and slash it into individual "words" and mat with a photo and sell it , so its not a NEW thing. And I could be wrong BUT a letter signed by one of the above MIGHT have more historical importance than a guy who could not even write and sold out his own team mates
_________________
Buying and selling Vintage autographs for over 3 decades
jim@stinsonsports.com

[David Atkatz]

Have to disagree, Jim. A century ago, collectors did not mat autographs with photos. And the slicing up of letters into individual words is quite a modern phenomena. (In defense of those that do that sort of thing, though, it is usually an unsigned manuscript that is minced.)

[JimStinson]

David Not a problem see....

http://www.amazon.com/Autographs-Col.../dp/B00005VH8Y

This was written in 1960. Maybe i was wrong in using the word "matted" as I agree with you it can be confusing , BUT they did sell individual "words" and later (who knows when) matted and sold them

[David Atkatz]

I've got a copy, Jim. (And it's been inscribed by Mary Benjamin herself. )

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Burrguana

Shoeless Joe Jackson Signatures are never pretty, but they sure are worth owning. They demand pretty big bucks at auction.

Why didn't you want to tell the others you are the owner of it?

[Burrguana]

I dont really care for too much attention. Auction ends Weds Nov 7th. Thank you to everyone who has checked it out. http://pristineauction.com/auctions/...ails/id/69680/http://pristineauction.com/auctions/...ails/id/69680/

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Legally, yes, of course. But it's still wrong.

As collectors, we are merely caretakers. These artifacts existed before we were born, and they'll still be around--if we do our jobs--when we're gone.

The argument "He bought it, so he can do whatever he wants," is bullshit.

Please note that I do agree with you.

But, what do you say about automobiles going to the junkyard. MANY people consider those works of art. While, yes you most likely won't see a Ferrari, you may see an old Benz or even a Rolls Royce past its prime.

[David Atkatz]

Many a junkyard Benz or Rolls is bought and restored. Even a lowly VW beetle is saved from returning to the iron oxide from whence it came. (I know, 'cause I own one.)

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Many a junkyard Benz or Rolls is bought and restored. Even a lowly VW beetle is saved from returning to the iron oxide from whence it came. (I know, 'cause I own one.)

Many are, but many aren't. Do you still believe that the owner doesn't have the right to discard of it?

[David Atkatz]

Hey, Jake. If you've followed this thread, you should have seen that I gave up. I'm not arguing. Do whatever the hell you like with your stuff; there are far more important things in the world for me to worry about.

I will continue, however, to preserve those artifacts that have been intrusted to my care.