Pre-War Autograph Opinion

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Posted By: Anonymous

I have recently been offered cut signatures of Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, and Honus Wagner. Before purchasing the group I thought I would ask the opinions of the experts on this forum. Thanks.

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Posted By: Kyle

I'm not expert, but they sure do look a lot like each other. You can pay PSA/DNA for a quick opinion, I think its $5, $10 or $15... but that by no means means they're real.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I don't think the Ruth and wagner look even close. The Johnson is the closest to his actual signature but still looks really bad to me. Hopefully Jodi or Richard will chime in as they are the experts.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

They all look fake to me. All of them look like they were written slowly without flow, and probably by the same person.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Spend money to get them authenticated...NOT!!!

I'm no expert but having seen numerous Ruth and Wagner they are not even close. Note on the Ruth the break at the bottom of the R where it flows into the u. The B in Babe is just awful. I suspect these were created by some seven year old. I agree that the Johnson is close but is a fake as well.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Here are some real ones to compare..

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Again, a few more real to compare:

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Posted By: Sean Coe

The sizing of the letters in the Ruth and the Wagner are not correct. The writing in Walter appears slow like a bad trace job.

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Posted By: Mark

Interesting because these are from eBay and have been encapsulated by Spence:

Ruth: http://tinyurl.com/2uhc7v
Wagner: http://tinyurl.com/3c3qov
Johnson: http://tinyurl.com/2k4hdb

So unless you're getting a deal from three different buyers, I think someone's trying to pull one over on you.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I have to say I'm amazed these are deemed authentic by Spence. I think they are three of the worst I've seen.

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Posted By: DJ

...or someone who is anti-JSA wants to gather opinions (agenda?) to show how this authenticating company doesn't know what the are doing?

The links above don't appear to work and I couldn't find them on eBay. Anyone else have trouble looking at these sigs?

DJ

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Posted By: Richard Simon

They are awful in my opinion.
DJ and others- the links to these auctions were not properly set up by Mark. I did view them, if you just copy and paste each individual item, you will get to the ebay auction and see the encapsulation with Beckett/JSA.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: leon

I think it would be prudent to make sure that JSA in fact deemed these authentic before we lynch anyone.....I have almost no idea about autographs but even to a novice that Ruth signature looks really bad.....

edited typo

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Posted By: Matt

corrected ebay links.

http://tinyurl.com/2uhc7v
http://tinyurl.com/3c3qov
http://tinyurl.com/2k4hdb

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Leon and others - yes you can copy and paste the links individually and all have been encapsulated by Beckett/JSA.

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Posted By: DR

Item number: 130177026937

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Posted By: Matt

ROFL

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Posted By: leon

Ok....so now the question is, does JSA really think that Ruth auto is legit, on 2nd review? I know nothing and they (supposedly.. we hope) know a ton.....but that Ruth auto is not like any that I have seen before. Even as only card guys we get exposed to a lot of nice looking Ruth autos.....Can't say I have ever seen a "B" formed that way on other legitimate pieces.....Maybe I just don't know... ??

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Posted By: Dave F

I've always wondered how you can verify any signature for sure. I know for a fact nobody would ever be able to correctly verify mine....everytime I sign something it looks a bit different. Maybe I'm the only one like that...but just too much guessing and hoping goes into autographs for me to ever come off the hip with a bunch of money for one.

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Posted By: micah

edited due to anonymity.....You didn't listen....nothing personal....(leon)

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Posted By: leon

Lets all be careful about anonymity in this thread. Say what you want to but you need to put your name by it or I need to know you. The reason I say "I" need to know you is that, being moderator, if someone comes to me about something that is said on the board I need to know who you are...this is all per the forum rules and certainly nothing personal. You are legally liable for what you say on the board...best regards

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

This reminds me of the ebayer who was selling "vintage" photos a few years back and if you looked at his buying activity the only thing he bought on ebay was vintage photo paper.

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Posted By: Rhys

One of the easiest ways to tell whether a Ruth is real or not (one of the giveaways) is how he crossed his "t". He always used a really hard vertical stroke and pressed the pen at the end leaving a small dot of ink. The way he crossed his "t" in that signature is not straight and there is no spot at the end. You can have a fake Ruth with this characterisitc, but you basically cant have a real one without it. That signature is a joke, as is the Johnson. I dont have as much experience with Wagner and that one is closer to the real deal but still looks bad. Pretty pathetic.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: DJ

I kind of figured there was a motive here.

This seller appears to specialize in high end items, pretty much all Ruth, Gehrig and Wagner items, based on his feedback, much in
single signed form (or multiple HOF stars like Cobb and Wagner) and everything is authenticated by PSA/DNA or JSA.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcyberlegends

Hmmmmm...

DJ

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Posted By: leon

Not sure I understand the motive question? If these are as bad as they look to be, it's not the sellers fault unless he is the authenticator too?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Why is the seller buying old ink? That's the question I want answered.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hmmm...

So a fellow selling old autographs should refrain from buying scanners, old paper, old ink, and the like; unless he does so with a different eBay id.

Always something to be learned on this board.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Certainly circumstantial evidence, but add that to the crappy autographs and I wouldn't bid on anything this guy is selling. I also wouldn't buy an "antique" photo from a guy buying up old stock velox paper, but that's just me. I'm funny that way.

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Posted By: Brett

Those autographs look fake... they are really bad.

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Posted By: Mike

After reading the whole T206 Walter Johnson thread, I can't ever imagine myself purchasing an autograph. In my unprofessional opinion, I believe many if not most are fakes. Fake cards are normally easy to spot (usually). A good fake autograph isn't even for the most skilled experts.

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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

When I click on this sellers feedback and try and look at older auctions all the picture links come up blank. I know I try and keep scans in my listings for about 2 months or so.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm not an autograph guy, but I knew those were bad in about two seconds.

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Posted By: Mark Steinberg

I "watched" a previous auction of theirs, in which a ball autographed by Ruth, Maranville, and the Dean Brothers was being offered by them on Ebay.

This very ball had made the rounds via at least 2 - 3 catalogue auctions, including Mastro and Lelands. It was very recognizable to me, as the Ruth autograph had a significant scuff, and the combination of players on the ball was unusual.

This ball, now being offered on ebay was identical in every way, but the Ruth signature was now near perfect... no scuff! The ball also appeared to have been shellacked, to conceal/preserve the enhancement. There was no prior mention of shellac in the catalogue auctions' write-ups (they nearly always disclose this...)

I wrote the seller to inquire about these changes, and they sent back a canned response, stating that it is not their policy to divulge their procedures. Hope this is somewhat helpful, as it may partially explain their purchase of the fountain pen ink.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but you do have to be careful about provenance, etc. And, where there is risk, you had better have a certification from a reliable source.

Of course there will never be any guarantees of authenticity unless you were the guy who obtained the autograph in person. Some cannot get beyond that and can never collect autographs of deceased players. The way I view it is from more of an economic perspective.

Take an A.P. Leifield signed T206 card. How much would I pay in today's dollars to be the actual person obtaining Leifield's signature in person, i.e., to have that individual experience and knowledge that Leifield signed it himself. Let's say I'd pay $1,000 for that experience. Well, without that knowledge, how much am I willing to bet that a signature -- from a well established autograph collection from a period in which Leifield was alive and well and known to be signing -- is authentic? $200? $300? maybe $400? Sure. You are able to obtain these signatures at a discount given the lack of personal knowledge, is my point. And, when the provenance is shaky and weak, or nonexistent, the discount is even higher.

The signed T206 cards in my collection have been obtained primarily from two well-known collections of autographs that were compiled in the 1950's and 1960's. In one case, I actually have recorded the story of the guy who says he obtained them in the mail and in person (renown autograph collector Jeff Morey). Those cards line up well in a number of ways with the cards I already had that were obtained from a similar collection to Morey's.

So, again, it is all about provenance, learning about the signature -- where it came from, who authenticated it, what they were thinking, etc. But is there risk even there? Sure. And the risk goes up astronomically when you are talking about Ruth, Johnson and Wagner.

But before people cast aspersions on these signatures, I would recommend they sit down with Spence or his folks at a show (they'll be in White Plains this weekend) and talk to them about these signatures. And about authenticating Ruth generally. I won't speak for them, but their explanations are very enlightening and really helped guide my perspective on authenticating signatures. If you are just eyeballing it from a scan against another scan, you really are doing a disservice by giving an opinion one way or another. The truth is you'll never know 100%, and then the question becomes how sure are you and how much are you willing to pay for that level of certainty?

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Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: Russ Bright

Babe Ruth autographs are plentiful - you should be able to get a good grasp of what they look like after seeing a few cut cards and what not and though a little bit rarer even on a BAD day honus's autograph would look better than that - here's mine

[IMG][/IMG]


if it looks too good to be true, it probably is...

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Posted By: Mark Steinberg

I found a picture of the pre-enhanced original Ruth Signature. This signature now appears nearly perfect, with no scuff. I wish I had an image of the newly altered ball that was sold by this seller on ebay.

If you want to view all panels of this ball, it is in REA's archives... It was most recently Lot #505 of REA's 2006 Auction. I would paste the link to that page if I knew how to...

Odds are this ball will resurface again at some point... just a "heads-up" - one to watch out for.

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Posted By: Paul S

My impression was exactly like Kyle's, before I even saw his post.

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Posted By: micah

edited due to anonymity......I asked further up the thread not to be anonymous....nothing pesonal....(leon- moderator)

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I am no authenticator, but I do understand that more goes into it than what is being discussed and relied upon in this thread.

I also believe that if you posted an authentic Ruth that you would get a lot of people on here chiming in about why the Ruth is a bad forgery.

I just try not to jump to conclusions on autographs posted on Net54.

I encourage everyone who cares about vintage autographs to have some conversations with the main authentication companies.



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Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: Richard Simon

I have just sent copies of these autographs to four of the most knowledgable people I know in the hobby.
I will post results when they come in.

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss
--
edited for typos

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Posted By: leon

Thanks....should be interesting. At least with cards, if you are experienced, you can have a damn good opinion if something is real or not. regards

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Posted By: Richard Simon

I sent these scans out to four of the most knowledgable people I know in the hobby.
Mike Hefner, Shelly Jaffe, Jim Stinson and Danny Cariseo.
ALL OF THEM SAY the autographs are bogus.
----

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

I just sent the scans out to one more well respected autograph dealer, Ron Gordon. He also thinks they are not authentic.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I would have thought they were cracked out and replaced with forgeries, but I guess if Spence is standing by them.....well that's not good.

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Posted By: Richard Simon

T206 collector - who at the authentication companies do you suggest the collectors talk to?
Do you think the main authenticators at the authentication companies would even get on the phone with Joe Collector?
I think not.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: T206Collector

....readily approachable at shows around the country. Spence and staff will be in White Plains, NY. That's where I talk to them about autograph authentication.

I guess the only point I would like to be understood more often on here is that Babe Ruth is probably one of the most forged signatures in the world. The respected autograph authenticators know that and are generally very careful with Ruth and these kinds of signatures.

Before I pass judgment, I would like to see some real analysis, where someone sends in 5 real Ruths and 5 fake Ruths and see where they all come out and then publish those results. Because by and large when signatures are posted on here, even ones with great provenance, a large quantity of naysayers appear and lay claim to expert eyes.

In short, some collectors believe that Spence and other respected authenticators will authenticate a sneeze on a napkin as an authentic Babe Ruth signature, willy nilly. I believe more goes into it.

Now, whether these signatures on here are real? I don't really care. But before I went on a public message board to slam the authenticators, I'd talk to them about it. You really can do that. I know because I've talked to authenticators about signatures they've found authentic that I questioned. And it really is an interesting and educational experience.


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Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

Who is to determine the 5 fake Ruth autographs and the 5 real Ruth autographs?
And the people who have said nay to these autographs are among the best in the hobby - Stinson, Hefner, Cariseo, Jaffe, Gordon.

----

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: T206Collector

Real ruths to send in, then send in 10 fakes and see what percentage come back as forgeries.

But be careful. The authenticators do cooperate with the FBI on tracking down known forgers. That was another of my conversations as Joe Collector with the JSA people in White Plains last month that I thought was really interesting.

Ultimately, I don't care who the public trusts most. How did the public decide that PSA/DNA and JSA were leading authenticators? I never had a vote until I subscribed to both of their services and paid them both money. And I am not wedded to either.

But it is very easy to challenge the signatures when we don't have any knowledge about who really signed the items. I am looking for an empirical analysis of signatures we know are real vs. Those we know are fake and then see how many PSA or JSA get right. Now THAT was be fascinating.

Opinions about already authenticated signatures is interesting, but never definitive.
It is just a competing opinion. I am looking for objective fact and analysis.



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Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: Richard Simon

HBO has already done a test like this, though they did not test PSA or JSA.
Myself and Global were the only two who did well, the others that were tested did very poorly. Bogus autographs from the FBI bust in Operation Bullpen were used.
I have a link on my website to the video.
www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm

--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: micah

T206collector: Are you saying that Spence is claiming to assist the FBI personally? I find this hard to believe.