Is CC Sabathia a Hall of Famer?

[Baseballcrazy62]

Just saw he won his 250th game today. Never really thought of him as a HOFer but I might be rethinking my stance. Only 14 pitchers with 250 wins and 3000 strikeouts. Of the 14, the only one not in the hall is Clemens. Your thoughts. Leon: if this is in the wrong area please move it. Thanks

[ullmandds]

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

[lowpopper]

7 seasons over .700 winning percentage. He was dominant.

[Jay Wolt]

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

[wondo]

I like his chances and I like him. The Hall of Fame has always been somewhat of a popularity contest past the over-qualified players. My perception is that nice guys who are borderline get in - Tony Perez, any friend of Bill Terry, Baines, Youngs, etc. granted, these are all stars that anyone would be ecstatic to have on their team. Perhaps a notch below, while the Dick Allens, roid monsters, Belles of the baseball world remain on the outside. I'm not judging, just saying how it looks. There are outliers to every generalization.

Id love for Sabathia to get into the Hall - he's more than deserving imo. Plus he's one of the few successful players fatter than me (almost).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Definitely. He has both the strong career numbers and a solid stretch where he was one of the top pitchers in the game.

[oldjudge]

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

I agree with this. Verlander ... cc and MaYBE kershaw to 250. Although Kershaw will get in anyway, he only has 160 wins which shows how tough it is with all of the relief these days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

Just one.....Randy Johnson.

Steve

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

A strikeout can advance runners, although rarely. On the flip side a ball in play is much more likely to become a double play than a strikeout. I believe extensive analysis has been done on this by SABR and James and the conclusion is an out is an out.

Little League is a different story...........................

[RedsFan1941]

he’s the real deal

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

Better than Jack Morris, especially when you compare each to their contemporaries.

[Sogcollector]

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

[scotgreb]

IMO Sabathia is likely in and Kershaw is a lock -- 3 Cy Young awards and top 5 in 7 consecutive years + an MVP

Sabathia, CC 1999 Topps33T PSA 10 05324421.jpg

[Mountaineer1999]

Maybe? If so then Schilling, Tiant, and Kevin Brown go in also?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

Great--ERA covers that

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Maybe? If so then Schilling, Tiant, and Kevin Brown go in also?

Schilling would be in if he wasn't so detestable.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

You're not going to have a lot of company on that one and Kershaw has back problems not elbow problems.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Maybe? If so then Schilling, Tiant, and Kevin Brown go in also?

While I'm no fan of Shilling the person I have no problem with any of those three making the hall.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

The only players with 3000 K that are not in the hof are CC, Clemens and Schilling. I think all 3 will be elected.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

3 Cy Young awards, an MVP award, 7x All-Star, career winning percentage is essentially .700, career ERA of 2.41, a career WAR of 65+ in 12 years. Even if he has a career ending injury tomorrow those numbers dictate he is in... right now!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

3 Cy Young awards, an MVP award, 7x All-Star, career winning percentage is essentially .700, career ERA of 2.41, a career WAR of 65+ in 12 years. Even if he has a career ending injury tomorrow those numbers dictate he is in... right now!

Lock. No question. It's just a damn shame his post-season performance has been such a relative disappointment. Otherwise, a generational pitcher, and by all indications a fine individual as well.

[sycks22]

100% lock. Top 5 pitcher for a decade, Cy Young. On a side note I'm pretty sure his pants could be used as a parachute if the team plane went down.

[alaskapaul3]

The easy thing to do would be to have automatic HOF qualifications like they do in Japan. 250W 3000Ks and 500 saves jump off of the page, but the cheaters have ruined that.

But CC is a lock for the HOF and with 3 or 4 more good seasons Kershaw is a first ballot HOF

[Jim65]

CC is borderline, he'll get in, not first ballot though.

[MVSNYC]

Yes, he's a HOFer. Dominant. And as mentioned above, 250 is the new 300...just as 600 is the new 500 in the HR category. (See what I did there?)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Yes, he's a HOFer. Dominant. And as mentioned above, 250 is the new 300...just as 600 is the new 500 in the HR category. (See what I did there?)

If Bartolo had won 3 more would he get in, with his 4.12 lifetime ERA? I doubt it. I think it's still an overall assessment, but I agree CC should make it.

[glynparson]

C.C. Will get in the Hall Of Fame someday. Not positive if i would or would not vote for him. I certainly wouldn't protest him making it to the Hall thats for sure.

[packs]

I think he'll get the Mussina treatment and have to wait a few years but will get in. Don't really think of him as a HOFer though. He hasn't really been a good pitcher since 2012, which was 7 years ago. His 3,000 K's (while still impressive) feel like a Biggio compiler stat to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall of Stats has him at 115, 57th ranked pitcher, which is lower tier but definitely in. That seems accurate to me.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

3 Cy Young awards, an MVP award, 7x All-Star, career winning percentage is essentially .700, career ERA of 2.41, a career WAR of 65+ in 12 years. Even if he has a career ending injury tomorrow those numbers dictate he is in... right now!

+1 - Add in 9.7 Ks per 9 innings; an even “1” WHIP; a 4.27 K/BB ratio and 11 consecutive seasons of a sub-3.00 ERA (of which 3 of those were sub-2.00)! His regular season numbers are uncanny and possibly merit him a top 10 pitcher status.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hall of Stats rates Kershaw as 28th all time which again seems about right to me. Interestingly, he rates MUCH higher than Koufax to whom he is often compared.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If Bartolo had won 3 more would he get in, with his 4.12 lifetime ERA? I doubt it. I think it's still an overall assessment, but I agree CC should make it.

I totally agree it's an overall assessment. And as such, CC should get in.

My 250 comment (which others above said the same), is pointing out one (huge) aspect of his game...not the only one for review.

[Davidlisa]

C.C. was dominant for years, his numbers are good and in my opinion with the watering down of the Hall of Fame, he gets in.

[Snapolit1]

It's now the Hall of Very Good and Not Necessarily Amazing. And he belongs there under that umbrella with other Bronx Bombers of similar stature.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

I totally agree it's an overall assessment. And as such, CC should get in.

My 250 comment (which others above said the same), is pointing out one (huge) aspect of his game...not the only one for review.

You do have to wonder if we'll ever see another 300 game winner. I don't see anyone active now with a realistic chance. Verlander has 213 and is still phenomenal, but he's 36 so I wouldn't think his chances are great.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hall of Stats rates Kershaw as 28th all time which again seems about right to me. Interestingly, he rates MUCH higher than Koufax to whom he is often compared.

Kershaw compares to his contemporaries much better than Koufax does to his.

Koufax was dominant and put up great numbers in an era when pitchers put up much better numbers than they do today.

Kershaw put up similar numbers to Koufax in an era where pitchers put up far inferior numbers.

And I'm a MASSIVE Koufax fan.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

It's now the Hall of Very Good and Not Necessarily Amazing. And he belongs there under that umbrella with other Bronx Bombers of similar stature.

Its been the Hall of Very Good since 1946.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Its been the Hall of Very Good since 1946.

When was that first group of marginal 30s players selected? That really set the tone.

[insidethewrapper]

Has CC played for the Yankees ? He has, therefore he will be in the Hall of Fame.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

When was that first group of marginal 30s players selected? That really set the tone.

Chesbro, McCarthy, Tinker, Evers and Chance were all inducted in 1946. Maranville in 1954, Schalk in 1955. Flick in 1963, Combs and Haines in 1970.
Bancroft, Hafey, Hooper and Marquard in 1971. Need I go on?

You can make an argument for every one of them. But by and large, they are generally regarded as some of the weaker members. This is not some recent phenomenon. It has been going on for 70+ years.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Chesbro, McCarthy, Tinker, Evers and Chance were all inducted in 1946. Maranville in 1954, Schalk in 1955. Flick in 1963, Combs and Haines in 1970.
Bancroft, Hafey, Hooper and Marquard in 1971. Need I go on?

You can make an argument for every one of them. But by and large, they are generally regarded as some of the weaker members. This is not some recent phenomenon. It has been going on for 70+ years.

Think you're being a little hard on McCarthy. 7 titles and 9 pennants is pretty good.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by packs

Think you're being a little hard on McCarthy. 7 titles and 9 pennants is pretty good.

Tommy McCarthy, not Joe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Chesbro, McCarthy, Tinker, Evers and Chance were all inducted in 1946. Maranville in 1954, Schalk in 1955. Flick in 1963, Combs and Haines in 1970.
Bancroft, Hafey, Hooper and Marquard in 1971. Need I go on?

You can make an argument for every one of them. But by and large, they are generally regarded as some of the weaker members. This is not some recent phenomenon. It has been going on for 70+ years.

Lloyd Waner and Travis Jackson have to make that list. Ross Youngs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Has CC played for the Yankees ? He has, therefore he will be in the Hall of Fame.

What do people think of Pettitte's chances?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

You are correct. There are productive outs and unproductive outs. Anyone who can induce a strikeout like Sabathia is dominant. I never liked him as he always killed by Orioles (but then again, who hasn't) but he is a HOFer for sure.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by packs

I think he'll get the Mussina treatment and have to wait a few years but will get in. Don't really think of him as a HOFer though. He hasn't really been a good pitcher since 2012, which was 7 years ago. His 3,000 K's (while still impressive) feel like a Biggio compiler stat to me.

You say "compiler," I say "consistent."

[packs]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

You say "compiler," I say "consistent."

Consistency means repeated results. Take a look at CC's career since 2013. Let me know if you think that's a HOF span. Without it he doesn't get to 250 wins or 3,000 K's. I call that compiling.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Has CC played for the Yankees ? He has, therefore he will be in the Hall of Fame.

Surprised Jorge Posada wasn't enshrined. Chris Chambliss and Bernie Williams too.