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  #1  
Old 06-14-2016, 11:46 AM
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Nick Barnes
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Default Name 3 HOF'ers you don't think belong

A companion piece to the the thread where we named the 3 guys we think most belong in the hall who have yet to get elected. i want to know the 3 guys in who you think didn't deserve it! (try to keep it more modern as i know many of the dead ball era guys got in for reasons more about nostalgia than statistics)

1- Jim Rice - counting stats are good but not great, WAR makes him only the 76th best OF'er all time. If he had played for Cleveland he would have never even been considered. He also presents a problem because so many modern guys rank above him (Berkman, Andruw Jones, Beltran) in stats and WAR that how do you keep them out yet rationalize Rice in?

2-Phil Rizzuto- should be in for broadcasting, but not for playing. in WAR he ranks 26th in the live ball era, posted a career 96 wRC+ and a .706 OPS. Good solid player, but not a HOF'er

3- Bill Mazeroski- mediocre hitter, great glove, but not a great enough player to be in the HOF. in more for that one HR and for making the right friends on the veteran's committee.
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:27 PM
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Schoendienst
Slaughter
Kell
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:29 PM
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Anthøny N. ex
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Blyleven
Maz
Bowie Kuhn
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:32 PM
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Sutter
Gordon
Maranville
Tinker

oops exceeded my limit
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:36 PM
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Jim Rice
Ron Santo

You can have my extra spot Peter.

Last edited by bobbyw8469; 06-14-2016 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:38 PM
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Grimes
Lyons
Tinker
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
Jim Rice
Ron Santo

You can have my extra spot Peter.
Lindstrom and Hafey.
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Old 06-14-2016, 04:32 PM
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Jackie Robinson (sorry, couldn't resist )

In all seriousness,

Lou Boudreau
Joe Gordon
Luis Aparicio.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:30 PM
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Jim Rice, Bill Mazeroski, Andre Dawson

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  #10  
Old 06-14-2016, 05:31 PM
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Default Where to begin?

The list is very long, but there are certain difficulties involved in telling who is on it. Some of the hilariously bad selections were old guys picked for their defensive work. Rabbit Maranville, Pie Traynor, guys like that. The problem with writing them off completely is that it's really hard to measure defense from that long ago. Modern measurements of defense use play-by-play data, which records where, exactly, the ball was hit, where the player was (supposed to be) standing, and so on. So we have a pretty good idea of the quality of modern defense (although it still trails our understanding of offense). For early guys we often have only chances, put outs, and errors, as well as the propensities of batters to hit to certain fielders. That gives us an idea of how good they were, but we don't know if those chances were really difficult, if the batters really did get their hits where they, on average, get them, and so on. It also doesn't include some of the fine-grained measures that we use to evaluate modern players. I suspect that what this means is that we tend to under-rate early defensive wizards.

That said, my first nomination is Freddie Lindstrom. Even if he was a defensive wizard, there's just no way his career was long enough to collect hall of fame credentials. Frankie Frisch (who is a deserving hall of famer) was the leading force behind the Vet's Committee for many years, and got many of his old friends from the Giants inducted. My guess is that that's what happened with Lindstrom.

Joe DiMaggio - just kidding. Jesse Haines gets the second spot. He was basically an average pitcher, with a 3200 inning career. I don't really know how he got in. He topped out at 8.3% of the vote among the writers, and then the veteran's committee put him in.

Finally: all of the relief pitchers except Eckersley (and Smoltz, who wasn't really a relief pitcher). It's just not possible to accumulate the value it takes to make a decent hall of fame case as a relief pitcher. Eck is helped tremendously by the fact that he spent half of his career as a starter. And it's a really fundamental mistake to think that guys who come in to close the 9th inning are especially valuable: a run counts the same no matter when it's scored. A shut-down 9th inning in a close game is more exciting than a shut-down 1st inning in a game that turns out to be close, but the effect that they have on winning or losing the game is the same.*

*It's worth noting that the guys who developed WAR included a "leverage" component for pitching WAR. Basically, WAR *does* give relief pitcher extra credit for pitching at the end of close games. If you, like me, think that they shouldn't get that extra credit, then you'll think that WAR over rates relief pitchers. And relief pitchers (Eck and Smoltz excepted) are absurdly under-qualified for the hall, even by ordinary WAR standards. It usually takes about 60 WAR to get in the conversation for the hall (give or take), here are WAR totals for hall of fame relief pitchers (remember, INCLUDING the leverage component):

Fingers: 25
Gossage: 42
Sutter: 25

Way below what you usually expect.
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