PSA blues

[theshleps]

I used to be a hoarder and have recently been selling off my dupes and are down to under 10 to sell. I have never sent anything in before but decided to send in these 3 to PSA to help with the sale. I am well known by Jim Stinson, Bill Corcoran and many others who have seen my collection
1. Callahan Ty Cobb- bought from Ron Gordon who before he was retired was one of the premier sellers like Jim Stinson, Bill Corcoran, Richard Simon etc. Can view the item at
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=..._dmd=1&_ipg=50

2. callahan Cy Young fom EAC with an LOA from JSA. View at
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950-Callaha...0AAOSwGtRX0dGE

3. 1940 Playball Bill McKechnie can view at http://www.albersheims.com/LotDetail...ventoryid=5894
This came with a LOA from Richie Albersheim
PSA turned them all down, even the one with a full LOA from one of their new authenicators. I talked to a cold woman about the fact that one of their own authenticators had OKed the McKechnie before but she wasn't helpful.
Then there was the 1933 Goudey maranville I had a friend submit to Spence who rejected it. 2 months later I submitted it to an auction house and Spence (Jimmy both times) looked at it and passed it for the auction house. I think it is real as did people I trust.
These folks (PSA) have really pissed me off but if I ebay these 3 I'll never sell them for what they are worth without a cert. Most people want these certs regardless of how poor these guys are at authenticating. I am somewhat venting, somewhat asking for advice as sometimes this mess makes me want to liquidate and buy a farm in Hawaii.

[Klrdds]

I feel your pain and now welcome to the world of resell and auctioning that PSA and JSA rule with their swift swords of infallibility and inconsistency , even though both are jokes especially since the BIG 3 joining PSA has not changed their process at all or for the better , as I have posted several times.
I have a feeling that you won't be the first and that many collectors will feel your pain when they begin to sell or auction their collections.
Good Luck !
My advice is to start an early Happy Hour and try to forget this episode ....

[Republicaninmass]

Sorry Mike, I had that Cobb on my radar for a while! I just had psa turn down a Berra signed through his foundation, 100% real, and a clint courtney...I picked up from one of the new authenticators. It's very frustrating, and no reason is ever given. If they questioned the pen pressure, having been slowly drawn, or height/spacing of chracters...they should say so, and people can make their own determination.


As far as the JSA auction letters, I'd be surprised if a rep even looked at the lots. I believe the psa is now a guarantee, but JSA claims its a cursory review. It's BS and there are plenty of guys here on the board who actually care, and could make a living authenticating. The issue is, people out there are stuck on the big 2...maybe 3, and great cards are passed over because of it

[theshleps]

so strange how I have a full LOA from Rich Albersheim on the McKechnie as I bought it in Rich's auction. And now that Rich is a PSA employee they still turn that one down

[Maddog]

That's just plain idiotic.
Rich A. was one of the best dealers out there. I was shocked that he gave it up for PSA, and for PSA to now disregard his opinion shows why these TPA's NEED to be licensed AND regulated.
How can you brag about adding 3 of the best in the industry to your team and then question one of their earlier opinions

[theshleps]

PSA told me their policy to to view autographs without knowing provenance or looking at other COA's so as not to be influenced. There are pros and cons to that approach.
I have been in tough with Rich Albersheim and he is gong to help me remedy this. He is a great guy

[Republicaninmass]

Good to hear Mike! Looking forward to a postive prognosis.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Maddog

TPA's NEED to be licensed AND regulated.

The government gets everything right, so let's bring them into it.

Please provide details what government agency should be in charge of screening, testing, regulating and oversight of autograph authenticators.

[HexsHeroes]

. . .

I would email Rich Albersheim at his company's email/website and explain the situation. Mention that you see two options: either a refund of the original purchase price based on failure of PSA to support his original LOA, or provision of an acceptable PSA determination. Let him know that you will be sharing your experience and his remedy (whether acceptable or not) with the on-line community. It offers both Rich and PSA the opportunity for either positive or negative words for all to view. Include scans of the 1940 Playball Bill McKechnie, along with both his LOA and the PSA verdict. He can either ignore your request, refund your purchase, or align PSA with his LOA.

[theshleps]

I am in the process of pretty much doing that and Rich has been very helpful and supportive. He and Kevin Keating will be looking at the autographs I sent in over the next 2 weeks and giving their opinion. And Rich did offer to buy back the McKechnie should I decide to do that and to look at the Cobb and Young and give his opinion. A real class guy

[Republicaninmass]

I have one card in from Richard, and one in from Keating (2nd time's a charm)

[Maddog]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

The government gets everything right, so let's bring them into it.

Please provide details what government agency should be in charge of screening, testing, regulating and oversight of autograph authenticators.

Steve,

I am not saying that the government needs to get involved. Hell, they can't operate a lemonade stand for profit.

What I am saying is that if these TPA's (no insult to you or anyone else here as an authenticator) claim to be "professionals" exactly what training do they have
to base their professional status on? What is their professional responsibility?

Anyone can claim to be a professional but a professional is just that- someone who passes strict testing and vetting to prove they have the technical ability to perform at a high standard in their "profession" and is over seen by an independent board of like kind professonal's to insure that they do conduct themselves professionally. Maybe that's the answer- having TPA's be licensed and held accountable for their "opinions".

I do not know of any true profession where they can constantly screw up and get away with "well it was just my opinion". They're PAID for their opinion. If they screw up there should be consequences otherwise don't claim to be an expert or professional.

If I angered anyone else on the board I am sorry, it just drives me crazy when people claim to be a professional at something and when they screw up
they suddenly decide they don't have a professional responsibility!

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Maddog

They're PAID for their opinion. If they screw up there should be consequences otherwise don't claim to be an expert or professional.

The purchaser of the services is willingly entering into the arrangement knowing what they are paying for. The only authenticators I am aware of who claim to be able to "prove" or "guarantee" anything are the bogus forensic authenticators. And ironically, THEY are the ones with actual formal training and certification. (Just because you have the paperwork from some sort of certification doesn't mean you are honestly, ethically or competently applying it.)

[doug.goodman]

This thread explains exactly why i call them "the people who get paid for their opinions", and why I don't use them.

Doug

[Johnny630]

Agree with you Steve 👍

[Maddog]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

The purchaser of the services is willingly entering into the arrangement knowing what they are paying for. The only authenticators I am aware of who claim to be able to "prove" or "guarantee" anything are the bogus forensic authenticators. And ironically, THEY are the ones with actual formal training and certification. (Just because you have the paperwork from some sort of certification doesn't mean you are honestly, ethically or competently applying it.)

Steve,

You're taking this too personal.

I fully know that just because one has some form of certification does not mean they will act in a professional manner. Believe me, in my field I have met a lot of unethical people. But at least with certification there is accountability for their action(s).

My point is that if there is no way to hold someone responsible for their "opinion", nor will that person accept responsibility for their "opinion" then where is the professionalism.

Again, sorry if I am hitting a sore spot, but I see too many instances where someone calls themselves a "professional" just so then can charge a fee and then dodge any responsibility for errors.

Do we need experts in our hobby, hell yes, but we need to be able to ascertain what makes that person an expert. With PSA or JSA you have no idea who is looking at something. Have the specific individual who is authenticating the item sign the cert and have a means of holding that person responsible. is their "opinion" is false.

Is this too much to ask?

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by Maddog

Steve,



. With PSA or JSA you have no idea who is looking at something. Have the specific individual who is authenticating the item sign the cert and have a means of holding that person responsible. is their "opinion" is false.

Is this too much to ask?

Once again the subject of accountability for JSA and PSA enters the conversation. PSA , even with the BIG 3 there in name only ,and JSA will never have accountability as one of their characteristics/qualities as long as the collectors and dealers and AHs allow them to continue with business as usual . It would take a massive revolt of their services by the collectors and dealers and AHs to even have them consider accountability as to who and how many people looked at the item to render an opinion , why it was accepted as good or not accepted as good, and what methods were used to determine such opinion and issue a true LOA with those people's names and qualifications and a detailed description of their opinions on the LOA.
As long as the collectors and dealers and AHs follow PSA and JSA like lemmings over a cliff this accountability will never occur because it is not in PSA'S or JSA's interest to be accountable unlike Jim Stinson and Richard Simon who I consider accountable for all their opinion both positve and negative concerning autheticity of their items.

[Maddog]

Ken,

That is exactly my point. We allow this to happen.
When there are no controls in place you have chaos.
Anytime I purchase something over say $500 I couldn't
care if PSA & JSA bless it as gospel, if Jim S, Rich S, say no, then it's no.
They have integrity and accountability. That means a lot, even if it's just to me.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Maddog

Steve,

I am not saying that the government needs to get involved. Hell, they can't operate a lemonade stand for profit.

What I am saying is that if these TPA's (no insult to you or anyone else here as an authenticator) claim to be "professionals" exactly what training do they have
to base their professional status on? What is their professional responsibility?

Anyone can claim to be a professional but a professional is just that- someone who passes strict testing and vetting to prove they have the technical ability to perform at a high standard in their "profession" and is over seen by an independent board of like kind professonal's to insure that they do conduct themselves professionally. Maybe that's the answer- having TPA's be licensed and held accountable for their "opinions".

I do not know of any true profession where they can constantly screw up and get away with "well it was just my opinion". They're PAID for their opinion. If they screw up there should be consequences otherwise don't claim to be an expert or professional.

If I angered anyone else on the board I am sorry, it just drives me crazy when people claim to be a professional at something and when they screw up
they suddenly decide they don't have a professional responsibility!

A professional is technically someone who is paid to do something. Within that there's a wide variety of skills. I'm a bicycle mechanic, and consider myself to be a professional. I haven't taken any classes, but for sure I'm better than many who have.

As far a professionals having no responsibility - Have you ever tried to get anyone in software to take responsibility for their program not working right?

Steve B