Some National Thoughts

[Rich Klein]

I've had many different ways I've attended the National and whilst the show is great; I do believe there are many ways the show could be improved

First the positives:

1) The booth fees; although they seem expensive; are actually quite a bargain. If you figure 3 tables per booth and five days (including set-up) to buy or sell material; the tables average a very small amount on a per day basis.

2) The material at the show is awesome. If you can not find what you are looking for at the National; that item may not exist

3) You can SEE what you are buying. No matter how good scans are; nothing quite matches your own eyes

4) The availability for camaderie with fellow collectors/dealers is great. In my days back at Beckett; I enjoyed hanging out at Leon's/Scott's/Richard's Booth -- and got to meet and chat with many of you. That is just one example


Now for some things I'd like to see improved

1) I'd like to have the hours changed as a buyer/seller/corporate

My structure for hours would be this (And I don't think this would cost the promoters any money)

Tues == Early Set Up (Whatever the current hours for Early Set-Up would remain. Some dealers need more than one day to set-up and others want to come early. I have no problems with the extra charge for the early set-up.

Wed; Set Up Continues Until 5 PM -- After that --from 5-9 could the Corporate/Super VIP Party. Yes; booths and the show floor would be closed at that point; but dealers would have the option of staying in the venue or leaving. The party would not be on the show floor but another room. Earlier in the day; the National would have various seminars run as well. I miss those early seminars and I'd wager many collectors and dealers would love to hear insights from other of their bretheren.

Thurs: Dealer Set Up 8 Am; Super VIP entrence 9 AM; VIP 9:30; General Public 10 Am-7 PM
Events such as Leon's soiree could be held in the venue after 7 PM in other rooms on site. More on Leon Later (as he would say it's all good)

Friday: Dealer Set Up 8:30; Super VIP 9:00; Vip 9:30; general Public 10-6.

Saturday: Dealer Set up 8:30; Super VIP 9:00; VIP 9:30; General Public 10-5

Sunday: Dealer Set up 9; Super VIP 10: VIP 10:30; General Public 11-3.

Few Notes on the Hours:

1) Dealers are discouraged from closing their booth early; but with prior permission; that would be allowed. For example; since Leon is so involved with the net 54 Dinner; if he and Scott need to leave early -- that would be planned in advance and OK'd by the Nat people. This also gives approval for the Legendary people to leave early the day of their auction etc.

2) The Sunday Issue would be that no dealer can start carrying out material until 2 PM. The booth next to me was empty at 9:30 AM on Sunday and I don't know about you -- but if I pay $25 for my family to come in at 10 AM and the 3rd booth I see when I come in is closed; I wonder what exactly I paid my $$ for.


Few Other Suggestions:

1) I mentioned Seminars earlier -- if at all possible; we need to put a couple back on the schedule each year.

2) Better "approval" from the National to work with people; even if that particular deal does not make them $$. A couple of example I really enjoy is Stadiaplex; which is a really cool postcard only show run during the National but run outside the venue. Why that can't be a small part of the show I don't know. Leon's dinner is the closest thing to a hospitality room the hobby has. I know PSA does a luncheon, more of these events would be great

3) Please reduce the admission costs to enter this show. I understand for the vintage dealers that the admission cost is a small part of the cost BUT if we really want the next generation to be interested; we need to lower the cost. IIRC; the cost to park is $11 and admission to the show is $18. I don't know about you -- but a collector of "average" cards feels the pain of spending that much before they buy the cards they need for their Derek Jeter collection. We don't want to run museum's; we want to sell cards. If it turns out that attendance is about the same with much lower admission than with the $18 admission; then we can go back to the higher rate. I just want to try that once.

4) Many of the people who Run the National and are on the Board are friends of mine for many years and they know I want the National to succeed just as much as they do. I have not missed a National since 1983 and it's the best weekend of the year for me. I just want the National to be better; not an endurance contest.

5) I know a couple of people thought the show would be great with music pumped in. I agree with them and perhaps someone can figure out a way to hook up a SATellite Radio to the PA so we could listen to various stations during the day. Leon; I agree with you that we don't want Music drowning out conversations; but just as something in the background; such as MUSAK (sic) used to be.

If I think of anything else; I'll edit and post to this thread. I'm also curious as to your thoughts

Regards
Rich

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

5) I know a couple of people thought the show would be great with music pumped in. I agree with them and perhaps someone can figure out a way to hook up a SATellite Radio to the PA so we could listen to various stations during the day.

Regards
Rich

Hey Rich,
We can talk about this over lunch today but I like all of your ideas except the music one. When you have 10k+ people in a room talking it's hard to listen to music. I would be hoarse after the first day.

[slidekellyslide]

I think some low noise level baseball music could put people into a buying mood.

A little "Joltin' Joe DiMaggio" or "Willie, Mickey and the Duke".....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRvyF...e=channel_page

[Jewish-collector]

I absolutely loved my entire National experience. The Net54 dinner was, without doubt, the absolute highlight of the trip to Cleveland. If the attendence keeps increasing, Leon will have to rent out a larger facility.

I agree with Rich that the admission price (and parking) is way too expensive. If you drive & park there, it costs $26 per day just to get in the door before you even buy anything.

I really like the National in Cleveland personally, but I think the organizers should be holding the National in additional different cities than what they are currently doing. I know next year will be in Baltimore, but then it seems to rotate between Chicago and Cleveland. Why not try other cities that have been mentioned in the past ?

During the late 1970s and early 80s, larger sports collectors conventions included seminars and discussion panels but the hobby eventually drifted into the mammoth show/autograph pavilion model. With the advance of the internet, less business than ever takes place in person and fewer discussions occur between dealers and collectors who share the same passion. I'd like to see more of these type seminars & discussions during the National weekend, either during show hours or after show hours rather than a separate "Premier Collectible Conference and Exhibition (PCCE)" show that was unsuccessfully held in April of 2008 in Chicago.

Much better & less expensive food courts. At least in Cleveland, you can't just walk outside & grab lunch. So make lunch better quality & more affordable to us poor slobs.

Regards,
Alan

[Steve D]

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

[Exhibitman]

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

[Jim VB]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the Midwest/East Coast bias was being driven by the dealers themselves. The further west you go, the scarcer the product and exhibitors. (Especially in vintage cards, the West was still pretty unpopulated when much of the stuff we collect was distributed.)

I know the best attended National was in Anaheim, but many East Coast dealers didn't want to schlep their stuff across the country and back.

(From a retired retailer's point of view, the goal should be to schlep it across the country, SELL IT, and let someone else bring it back. Lots of guys would have to change their pricing and thinking. Novel concept, huh?)

I do know that Mike Berkus is a regular reader of the Non-Sports board. Although a good number of future events are already locked into certain cities, he may be more than willing to revisit the decision making process. I'll drop him an email and ask him if he wants to join the discussion.

[Jim VB]

Rich,

Don't think we didn't notice!

Very nice use of the word "whilst."

[benjulmag]

In the 28 or so Nationals dating back to the early '80s, exactly one has been in the New York City metropolitan area (Parsippany in 1984-sorry, Atlantic City doesn't count). Arguably New York City and its surrounds is home to the largest collecting base in the country. There has yet to be a national in Philadelphia or Boston, two major markets. I think year after year ignoring these major cities is very short-sighted. Sure its nice to have inexpensive hotels and other amenities, but its also nice to reach as much of the collecting base as possible. What would be so bad in rotating the National around geographic areas -- say one year in the northeast, the next in the midwest, then the west, southwest, southeast? Then, after the cycle has been completed, beginning it again but the next time at a different city in that geographic region.

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Cleveland's IX Center is a shabby, shoddy, decrepit dog of a facility with terrible food, bathrooms that rival a bus station in Tijuana, and no amenities in walking distance. Shouldn't we aspire to something nicer for the premiere event of the hobby? IMO we would be far better served with a first-rate venue in a first-tier city, even if it costs a bit more. I know quite a few very "advanced" (free-spending) collectors who'd had a bellyful of Cleveland and skipped this show. Enough with the garage sale/thrift store approach. We don't need to slum it.

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

[glynparson]

I like Corey's idea. I also agree with exhibitman's opinion of the I-X center and I had a good show.

[Rich Klein]

1) Corey is correct about the megalopolis from Boston to Washington getting the short end of the stick. Frankly; the cost to everyone of being in a large city is ginormous. Frankly the NY City area does not have a reasonably priced venue that would support the National. There are venues such as MSG or the Javitz that would but I'd guarantee the table rates would be at least double what they are now. I always wondered if the Valley Forge CC was big enough for this -- I know the Ft Washington was; but when the EPSCC was there -- I bet they had an exclusive.

2) Alan -- I guess admission was cheaper by a few dollars this year. The National Promoters can not usually control the Parking Prices for customers which is why I ask that admission be reduced. In the DFW area: now when I go to Arlington for a card show I know that the pricing is now part of the money I spend.

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.

4) My personal belief at this time is that we should be in Chicago every year. Good location near airport; plenty of parking (both high and low priced) nearby; public transportation available; hotels one can walk to (or drive to) and in all price ranges from the Embassy Suites to Motel 6; etc.

5) I'm glad you contacted Mr. Berkus; I sent a note to John Broggi about this thread. Hope Mr. Wilke does not feel left out

Rich

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

If your post wasn't so insulting to Adam it would make me laugh. You obviously have never met him. He's never been called some of those names before (perhaps other names, but not those.)

[mberkus]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks to Jim VB for bringing my attention to the thread. I will try to answer some of the issues, if I can, but I am not a one man show and others are part of the decision making process concerning the National. First, site selection issues. Since I live 10 minutes from the Anaheim CC, obviously I am very comfortable with the having the show return to Anaheim. Unfortuntately, the Anaheim CC will not have us. Just like the Moscone CC in SF, no consumer shows unless the CC has empty space 18 months out. We cannot wait to chance that we have a site for any year based on not having a contract 3-4 years beforehand. Lots of work to do before coming to town and do not want to risk any chance of missing a year of the show.

As for Philly, for many years Bob S. did not want us there and when Sportsfest launched, they stumbled terribly and scared the dealers vote away from the city. I lived there for 3 years and enjoyed it. Boston would be great, but the CC is too small and if Baltimore works (smallest CC we have ever had 290,000 sq ft to ave 400,000 sq ft), we might recheck Boston.

We have had serious discussions about Texas again, might happen.

As for music on the show floor, we had it for 5 years running and the dealers wanted it stopped. Nice for awhile but 5 days in a row and even your wife might agree with you.

Food concessions and parking. We have absolutely no control over any of that and do not share in any of the revenue. Sorry. Seems kind of silly to pay $4.50 for a Pepsi, must be nice to have a captive audience.

Seminars, games, fun get togethers, etc. all were part of the show during the early years. Now, no one attends any seminars, too competitive with the show hours and if we do them before or after, too long of a day. Nothing that either happens or does not happens, at the National, is not by a fluke chance. All aspects are approved by the Board of Directors, after the dealers vote on issues.

For those who had a good time, thanks for the comments. As for those who suggest changes, we always try our best to satisfy as many as possible. I will always be interested in hearing about how to make the National better.

Regards,

Mike Berkus

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.

[Ejm1]

3) Note to EJM -0- although Exhibit Man is doing OK for himself; he is not super wealthy. No need for personal insults here. And nice way to make a debut on the board.
Thanks. I will continue the good work.

[Jacklitsch]

Ejm1
member Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1

___________________________________________



WOW!! Nice first post. Welcome to the Board.

[benjulmag]

You didn't mention the NYC metropolitan area.

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

As a dealer, I need exhibitman. I was happy he bought a card from me. Unfortunately he isn't a Trust Fund Collector or he would have probably bought a few more of my cards.

Great. Fantastic. He's not a trusty fundy. The point is he thinks the I-X and Cleveland is a toilet (Which it's not, sorry) it comes across pretty arrogant. Hey, to each his own. I'm just a simple Hillbilly trying to collect ballcards.

[smtjoy]

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

[Reginald Marsh]

Am i at the National...........ZZZZZZZZZZZ.............

[Rich Klein]

Mike:

TY for answering some of my concerns. As you are aware; this is not a I hate the National post; but a true post with my concerns and with my suggested solutions. After all those years I thought that was a fair way to post.

Notice the only issue I asked to be reduced was the daily admission fee. I realize that parking and concessions are beyond your realm. Just trying to assuage the pain for daily collectors a tiny bit. Just remember; the National Promoters and board members have to pay the concession prices as well. I'm also hoping; as Chris points out a few posts down; that we can attract newer people into our fold with reduced attendance.

Obviously MVP badges are better and I'm all in favor of you selling as many of those as you can. If you noted within my post; I put in my hours suggestions extra times for MVP's and Super MVP's to be on the floor. I would assume those people would spend more. I liken those type of badges to seating at "premium" baseball games. I expect more to pay for walk-up tickets when the Yankees come to Texas than I do for a mid-season mid-week series with the Kansas City Royals. For those complaining about the MVP badge price; remember under my plan AND the current plan; the people get to come in earlier; get priority (or a few free) autos and get a better chance at better cards. MVP badges actually protects those collectors who want more chances at better cards.

As a note to most posters; one of the reasons SportsFest in Philly had so much trouble was that it was a downtown show. Trust me on this; very few card shows work in a downtown venue. They need to be where cars can come to them. Downtown shows stopped working for the most part by 1982. Al Rosen's 1988 MSG show was a rare exception and frankly one of the reasons for the big success of that show was that Richard Nader, the famed Rock Music Show Promoter had a big part in promotion for that show.

The GR Brown convention center in Houston is a very nice facility for a show. I'm also a big fan (perhaps the only one) of Market Hall in Dallas.

I appreciate those who are keeping this thread in the manner to which it was intended. For those going after E-Man; etc. please take your postings to PM's.

Regards
Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by smtjoy

Mike, first thanks for coming to the boards and answering some of the questions. It's nice to hear the things you all have to consider and not just from a collectors standpoint. I am in Houston so very happy to hear you are considering coming back to Texas, please do. Any consideration towards Las Vegas, I have been to a number of conventions there and really enjoyed them? I hope you all keep the options open as there are a lot of cities it would be nice to see the National at.

How about Kansas City? Attendees can see a ballgame and visit the Negro League Museum as well.

http://www.kcconvention.com/cec.nsf/web/facilityfacts

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Rich,

First of all...glad to meet you this year. Had a great time chewing the fat with you and Alan after the Net54 dinner.

Great points. But I'd like to add something the two of us discussed then: even though the majority of Net54 people are concerned with prewar vintage stuff, there's the fact that none of us is getting any younger. What about the future collectors?

My daughter Melissa (10 years old, she stopped in for the dinner and was wearing a Red Sox jersey) had a blast this year because I decided to make the trip as much hers as I did mine. In fact, this year my wife did the yeoman's work of adding to my collection while Melissa and I looked around for stuff, got autographs and enjoyed our time together. It was a major win/win for me: Ellen didn't get to give me her usual "you spent how much?" speech and my daughter got some valuable time with her Daddy (especially since we're nearing those dreaded teenage years and my window of opportunity for Daddy/daughter time is going to close just as soon as she realizes I'm "uncool") that will be a great memory even after the collection becomes a thing of the past.

I've said it in another thread and I'll say it again here: my daughter had a better show than I did (and I had a great time). Several fellow hobbyists commented to me that it was great to see a kid getting involved, and that began a discussion with my wife as we drove back home. Had I been able to attend a National at the same age (in my case, that would have been '83 Chicago), would I have had the same great time?

Sadly, I think it wouldn't have happened the same way for me. That's because when I attended my first show (in 1985 at the State Office Building in Watertown, NY) I sensed that the dealers were a little reluctant to deal with kids. In a way, the most important thing about kids was the wallets their parents were carrying so dealing with those little snot-nosed cardbenders was a means to the end result of earning money. In my case, I was well-versed on 1950s baseball by then and was able to get through to some dealers by talking with them. However, looking at 1985 vs. 2009 may be an apples/oranges comparison; then, 30-year old cards were from 1955 and were valuable enough to make my mother admonish me to be very careful if I picked them up, but today, 1979 Topps commons are tossed without a second thought into 25-cent boxes.

It made me think...when several people stopped by to commend me for simply bringing my little girl along to the show, it made me realize that I don't see the father/son pairs searching for cards as frequently as I did when I was a "weekend warrior" seller from 1989-'92.

Not so much a question as a stray thought I've had since leaving the show...

[tothrk]

Originally Posted by Ejm1

WOW!! MR. High End Millionare dealer/collector/pompus ass. The National is'nt all about you megabuck nerds. You got some big stones calling the I-X a dump. I'm glad you know some advanced collectors, go start a show with them and call it the Trust Fund Collectors National and only let certain tax bracket types in and you can hold it in any well heeled city you like. Glad you hate it, don't go back. Don't need you.

Welcome. You bring that old "jump in head first" saying to a whole new level. I agree that a venue with better food and a nicer latrine would be nice. Also, some accomadations or anything within walking distance would be nice. I live only 45 minutes from the I-X center so I'm basically interested in nicer food & a clean bathroom. Getting some different cities involved would be nice. However, the whole "Super MVP" and "MVP" and "Platinum Poobah" puts me off.

[mberkus]

Hello Again,

As time permits, I can check back to review additional comments. Actually, the 2 weeks after the show are the hardest. Both exhausted and have to finish up a ton of details.

NY was one of the funniest experiences ever for trying to set up a National. We went into the Javits Center, since we need a minmum size floor, and met with their space reps. With consideration to booth fees, we actually struck a deal. Then the two guys from the decorator's union came into the meeting. They asked "how much do you charge for a booth to your people?" I told them, at the time, $650. They moved their toothpicks around a bit and came back with "OK, you need 2 tables, 4 chairs, and a small sign in each booth. That will be $2450". I thought they had misunderstood and I repeated we only charge $650 per booth. But they replied " That's your problem". After working with the hotels, parking, and the Javits, we figured booths would be a reasonable $3500 each, hotel nights $425, and parking $35 per day.

KC was too small a site for us last time we check, nice city though!

Booth prices are based on competitive collectible shows and what is needed to pay the $400,000.00 facility and decorator fees. Admission price is based on the amount needed for advertising, marketing, promotions. We run an average of 14 newspaper ads, 500 radio spots, and 50 TV ads. We also pay for Cleveland.com, travel mags, online sites, and banners. The average ad we place is $9500.00 per 1/4 page. Once we put this together we count on the previous attendance numbers and come up with as reasonable an amount for per person to attend. We never profit much on attendance, just one of those things since our hobby has decreased a bit.

Finally, the aspect of admission price. Kind of silly to pay to come into a facility to buy stuff? Always bothered me. But, the costs to host the show have to be met somehow and admission fees are one of the streams of income. On a very personal note, certainly not shared by my partners, I figured that if a person could not handle the parking and admission price, then how much does it mean to the dealers who are looking to sell cards? If $18 to get in and $8 to park are a burden, then how do we rationalize the guy who flys in and has to stay in a hotel and rent a car? No easy answer. But, as usual in a free society, those who feel the value pay the way and those that don't, stay home. I remember an individual who told me that if it wasn't worth the price of admission, it probably wasn't worth going to.

Hope to see everyone in Baltimore. Seems like a lot of excitement to hit a brand new territory.

Best regards,

Mike

[Exhibitman]

I don't know Eric, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...this time...and let his post speak for itself. The irony, of course is that I'm probably the cheapest, lowest grade, least trust-funded collector this side of Alan (hi Alan; no offense, we're all mishpacha here...).

Regardless, anyone with even half a brain can see that the difference between last year's show (Rosemont) and this year's show (IX Center) is like night and day. Rosemont had four hotels across the street with a bevy of restaurants nearby. No parking, no driving, no shuttles, no IX "cuisine" at ridiculous prices (I could eat at Gibson's every day for what the IX wanted for its slop). It had myriad places throughout the center to sit down (in easy chairs) and relax between floor walks. It was easy to go back to one's hotel and relax for a while. It was simply superior in every possible way to the Cleveland venue. The people who attended this year's show described it to me as "shabby" "a slog" "unpleasant" "seedy" and several other less than salutary terms. Given that the IX Center is so far below the standard of Rosemont, there is no good reason to ever go back there.

[Reginald Marsh]

If someone is complaining dealer or buyer about parking and admission which is a total of 26 bucks then stay at home and buy on e-bay. I personally think 26 dollars is cheap to see some of the best cards in the world in one room and a chance to complete sets or find super rare cards.

In a world full of folks constantly griping about a few dollars try fastening your seatbelts and think about the folks that lost their entire life savings in Madoff's crazy scheme.

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I do think their needs to be some light rock-n-roll background music because the room needs energy and the music does not need to be cranked just played.

[tothrk]

It would be a change of pace to hold the National on a cruise ship. Maybe a 5 day Caribbean excursion.

[Ejm1]

If a person wants to buy nickel and dime cards then they do not need to go to the national to find them. I almost fell off my chair when i guy rolled up and said i am here for one reason and that is to find the 1969 Ted Williams manager card do you have one?

I get your point, but if all the collectors of this type vanished, whats left? Just make it a trade show not open to the public, dealers only. It seems the small timer is not a welcome guest.

[rc4157]

This was my 1st National so I can't compare to any of the other venues. I kind of expected food to be expensive and it was certainly enjoyable to see all of the cards available, even if I wasn't purchasing in the high dollar range.

It sounds like Chicago was a great place to host the National, that would still be within driving distance for me, approx. 5 hours, so I'd like to experience the convention there in 2 years.

Overall, I had a great time, the highlight was meeting some board members at the dinner.

Oh yeah, background music would be good, but it would have to be soft enough to allow discussion and would have to vary enough to not drive people crazy that are confined to their booths for 5 days.

Edit to add: I felt welcomed by the majority of dealers, even some who just wanted to share info. regarding particular players. One dealer shared a scrapbook of Ted Kluszewski material after I asked him about a '49 Leaf of Klu, he didn't have the card but shared the album. I'm sure he would have liked for me to purchase it but he just thought it was a pretty cool item, which it is.

RC

[mjkm90]

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.

[Exhibitman]

Mike H: Understood. However, wouldn't it be nice if the experience was pleasant as a whole rather than tolerated for the cards, esp. since the costs are about the same? My point being that you don't have to do the premiere trade show in the convention center equivalent of a rec center basement. If you do that every other year, you risk losing your customer base. I know for a fact that quite a few collectors who are active on this board did not attend this year's show because they did not want to go to the IX again.

As far as cheap/readily acquired cards go, everyone collects what they like, and sure, they can probably buy on Ebay, but those who attended the show looking for common cards still wanted to come to a National. Which makes it all the more important to get those people an experience that isn't second rate. If the experience is seedy, unpleasant, unmemorable, etc., for the casual collector, they aren't going to come back, because they can do the same thing on Ebay.

Rich K: I don't think incremental changes in the admission and parking costs are going to deter any collectors from attendance or encourage anyone to come to the show solely on that basis.

Music is a horrible idea. In order to make it anything more than background noise it would have to be loud enough to be intelligible, which would make it too loud to converse over.

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by mjkm90

I'm a memorabilia guy and have a small group of cellecting buddies who attend the National most years. We have different income levels, life situations, and collecting budgets, but we would ALL attend and LOVE the National if it were held behind the dumpster at Ponderosa. I'm there for the people and the product. I am fortunate enough to have the means to attend a ball game, high end restaurant, or posh hotel when I wish, but the National is my destination for this trip. Sitting on a box in a booth or drinking cheap beer in a motel room and telling hobby stories is fine with me. Every penny I spend on hotel and food means less money to spend with dealers. I met a few card guys at the dinner, all were super nice, and seemed very into the experience not the location.

Love this post!

[Ejm1]

Exhibitman:
Sorry for the harsh words, I just get tired of the Cleveland bashing. It seems that if it's not a costal city it must be a dump. Long live the small collector.


Instead of music perhaps a mini Jubotron type screen with old W.S. highlights or old newsreels about sports or just about anything with Mel Allens or Curt Gowdys voice.

[Mark]

One of the most appealing aspects of the Cleveland show is that you can drive there from many other cities in a day. A bit of a drive from Boston, but most other big cities are fairly close. Maybe Pittsburgh has a convention center near some good hotels and bars?

[Ray Van]

First of all, I thought the bathrooms were clean and the food wasn't bad. $5 for a slice of pizza and a Pepsi isn't bad considering ... and there were lots of different food choices. Not haut cuisine, but not bad either. Logistics plays a role in that large venues tend to be close to airports - in Cleveland's case there's not a lot within walking distance but that's what you get - and you know that going in, so don't complain about it after the fact! Cleveland is a nice city and we enjoyed our trip - we drove in from Toronto and stayed downtown - my trusty GPS got me from the hotel to the show and back.

My biggest peeve about the show is the dealers that pack up early or don't even bother showing up on Sunday. That happened to be the only day I could go and this was my first taste of the National in about 20 years. I was there for the day, but in the afternoon almost every second table was deserted. Not a pleasant experience - more needs to be done to keep dealers there for the entirety of the show. No excuses. Sorry, you'll just have to book a later flight.

I also found most items to be very overpriced. I wasn't expecting fleabay prices, but 3-4x ebay prices is a little ridiculous. I left with $1000 burning a hole in my pocket (and I don't have deep pockets) - imagine how much more you could sell if your prices were more in tune with reality? Of course I'll pay more to see and hold something in person ... but only to a point.

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike - snobbery about cities, venues, or collecting habits isn't necessary.

Two additional suggestions for sellers:
1) put prices on your stuff - chances are I'm not going to ask how much, instead I'll find another table with the same item with a price on it
2) make eye contact and turn away from your conversation with a buddy - you might lose a sale otherwise

Despite some minor negative thoughts, I found the experience overall to be a positive one and something I will come back to in the future ... just not every year.

[Jewish-collector]

The admission & parking fees will never deter me from going, but it is a hell of a lot of money. That money could have been used for cards & memorabilia.

Also wanted to add that the House of Blues in Cleveland is an absolutely fantastic concert venue. Too bad Alice in Chains wasn't playing there while I was in Cleveland.

[bcornell]

I just did my 7th straight National. Not a great year for buying cards, but I'm still glad the event exists. And it's good to hear from Mike Berkus about the logistics. There was a rumor that 2011 would be in Anaheim, but I guess that's out. Looking forward to Baltimore and 30-40 of us having a slumber party at Dan Mckee's house.

My only request is find anywhere else other than Cleveland: 3x in 6 years coming from the West Coast is a drag. There's now just one direct flight from SFO to there per day. Our Seattle friends had to go through Dallas. Etc.

My favorite moment from this show was a spontaneous sale to a Phillies collector that I made at Rhett Yeakley's table. The guy mentioned he wanted a D381 Fleischmann Bancroft and I had my only dupe from that set in my backpack. He was glad & so was I. Oh - and thanks for letting me poach, Rhett.


Bill

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Mark

One of the most appealing aspects of the Cleveland show is that you can drive there from many other cities in a day. A bit of a drive from Boston, but most other big cities are fairly close. Maybe Pittsburgh has a convention center near some good hotels and bars?

That's true, if you live east of the Mississippi River and north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Those who live elsewhere (like me) have to fly, and I for one, can't afford to spend upwards of $500 before I even get in the convention's door.


Steve

[NonSportDaniel]

I collect almost exclusively non-sports cards, with an occasional boxing focus, so my thoughts might differ from most of you on this board. I do lurk here every day as I really appreciate all of your knowledge and enjoy the topics and banter.

It is impossible for me to be anywhere during the week so I can only attend a show like the National on Saturday and Sunday. I was at the show all day Saturday and all day Sunday and found it nearly impossible to see everything that was on display for sale. The thought of cutting back the hours on those days is one that I find abhorrent. Additionally many dealers didn't even show on Sunday so several cards that I decided that I wanted after I walked the show floor (which took the entire 10-6 on Saturday) I couldn't go back and purchase on Sunday. Also, there seems to be a skewed focus on dealer to dealer time and not enough on random buyer to dealer time, at least for someone like me who can only attend on weekends.

I'm fairly young and have one in private college and one in private high school so I don't/can't spend as freely as I suspect some who post here are able (at least not today; but today my kids are my main focus, not my collecting). My budget for the National might be $700, although I fully realize that I'll probably spend more like $1000 (and did, of course). $26 per day to walk in the door for two days is like a 5.2% loss of my spending money, assuming I spend the full $1000; no small percentage in my humble opinion. I have a hard time believing that my $1000 is considered to be so small chump change by the dealers that they are indifferent if I even show up, but I suppose that everyone is entitled to their opinion and anything is possible.

I'm a midwesterner so my vote would be to keep it in Chicago, for what my vote is worth.

I enjoyed meeting Leon as well as many other dealers and collectors and look forward to 2011 as I'm not sure that Baltimore is doable for me.

[JamesGallo]

I think I have a rather unique view of shows, as I have done them all over the world. I went to the last national in Cleveland, I have done shows in LA, NYC and Chicago.

The price for a 10x10 booth at the Javis center for NY Comic Con is $1000 plus $200 per table but you could bring your own if you wanted to. This is far from what was said above and this show was only last year. If could be slightly different as this is an annual show, so maybe they get better prices.

The Chicago comic con has a similar type cost. I personally don't like the Javis venue as there isn't much around food or hotel wise, but obviously cabs are very easy to get.

Downtown LA has a huge center but it closed down early and after 8 you couldn't find a place to eat.

My understanding is that the Baltimore convention center is huge since it expanded.

What about the Nassau Coliseum, I remember the old shows in the 90s and they were great. Plenty of hotels at reasonable prices and not hard to get to. Should be plenty of room as well.

I do think the north east would do well with a national.

I think the food and bathrooms are typical of any large venue, I don't recall the food being so bad in Cleveland, it just seemed that it was a bit dated.

At the comic and star wars shows they have stuff going on all the time, but I think that works because there are more aspects to those properties, such as writers, actors, artists etc. Those aspects down draw for sports cards. Perhaps more kid friendly things would work though.

As for the VIP tickets the only use I found for them was early admission. I have had no interest in any of the signers for the last few shows so getting stuff signed does me no good. I would prefer to have an option of a non autograph VIP ticket at a reduced price.

Just some thoughts.

James G

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Steve D

The change I want to see is for the National to get out of the Cleveland-Chicago-East Coast rotation.

Why not put Dallas and Los Angeles in the rotation?

I live in San Antonio TX, and the only National I've ever been able to go to was in Houston. We need to get the National to more cities, so more collectors have the chance to attend. Half the country is currently being left out of the mix, and I'm sick of it!


Steve

Amen. Chicago every 4th year and drop Cleveland. Baltimore next year will be great and I wish 2011 was in Dallas and 2012 in St. Louis.

[Bamacollection]

My only thought on the National...JEALOUS!!!! Some day, some year...It will happen!

[tbob]

I've been to about 8 of the Nationals and the ones in Arlington (Dallas) and St. Louis are right at the top of the ones I have attended although the 2006 Chicago National was excellent also.
Baltimore was a great choice. The continuing less than dynamic duo of Chicago and Cleveland is not.

[tbob]

[QUOTE=Ray Van;739954]

And the comment about the 1969 Ted Williams card - you are missing the point. That is the collector you want to cultivate - we all started there at some point. If that person has a positive experience, maybe next time he will be collecting the Fleer Ted Williams set or an autographed bat - who knows where that will lead to (I never thought I'd get a Turkey Red but I picked up my first two a couple weeks ago). We all play in role in nurturing new and experienced collectors alike

Well said.

[Reginald Marsh]

Not true.....everyone is welcome just not those who complain about fees. If you are only looking for a 10 dollar card then why drive 4 hours and pay 26 bucks to get in. I would never travel to the National looking for things i could find everyday in multiple places.

[Oldtix]

From 1986 to 2001, I was an exhibitor at 11 Nationals. I returned to the National for the first time last week just as a fan and really enjoyed the experience. Here's my two cents from the perspective of "fresh eyes".

(1) I didn't see pogs, beanie babies pavillions, TV celebrity autograph guests, X-treme sports stunts or rabid buying of promo cards by lobby squatters. True, there was a ferris wheel...but nobody's perfect. Congratulations to all of us for beating those cancers into remission.

(2) I entered at 10 am Friday and finished seeing every table a half hour before closing time, even taking time to chat and grab a bite for lunch. That would never have been possible with the 1,000-plus tables of the boom years. Congratulations to the organizers for seeing that bigger isn't always better.

(3) With few exceptions, I felt that almost every exhibitor was genuinely interested in what they were selling. I'm sure there were mercenaries there, but nowhere near as many as in days gone by. Countless times I saw them sharing their knowledge and their wants with customers and with other dealers. The brotherhood of collectors seems to be strong; the Net54 dinner was terrific.

(4) We definitely have an aging collector base, but if addressing that takes us back to pogs and beanie babies...let us die off with our dignity and resist a relapse.

(5) The organizers did a fantastic job of mixing up the dealers. There was great variety from table to table; I never glazed over at repetitive themes in any aisles. And there weren't many tables of artificial "collectibles."

(6) There were extraordinary treasures as in the old days (and not just at the auction house booths). A novice would absolutely feel like they had visited Cooperstown. Whether they sold or not, I'm grateful to all who brought their best stuff to the show. And the focus of the show was the stuff, not the fluff.

In summary, it felt like a true National Sports Collectors Convention should feel. Sure, the hobby has issues as readers of these boards are well aware...but this collector's spirit was refreshed!

[Wite3]

I missed this year's National for no other reason than the economy. A flight from LA to Cleveland was expensive. Before people jump on me...I did check it out well in advance. How about putting a National in a city that is a flight hub like Pittsburgh, Atlanta, or Dallas. Cheaper airfare, hotels, and venues are probably more likely to be found in those cities.

I would love it to be in Vegas but there is resistance to that venue. Vegas really does have it all, Convention centers, cheap flights/hotels, good public transportation, entertainment for the whole family, etc.

Joshua

[buymycards]

Rich, I agree with several of your points. I wasn't able to make the National this year, but I attended the large show in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, and that experience mirrored the experience that I had a the Chicago national a couple of years back.

I live 4 hours from Chicago, so I left home early enough to get to the show when it opened at 10:00 on Sunday. Some of the dealers left on Saturday, and by noon on Sunday several tables were empty. By 2:00 most of the dealers started packing up and by 3:00 there were only a few dealers still selling cards.

8 hours driving
6 bucks in tolls
12 bucks parking
10 bucks to get in the show
32 bucks for gas
Food prices at the show were outrageous

I had several cards that I was looking for, but I felt that the prices on the cards that I wanted were completely out of line compared to the BST and ebay. I didn't buy a card until around 2:00.

I love the big shows, and I don't mind the drive, but it really ticks me off when the dealers leave early.