T206 "Wagner" of Soccer Cards - Proposal

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by aljurgela

Fair enough. Certainly that is one of the most famous cards (and most valuable), so that would hit the mark for most. My criteria was a bit different. Onto a couple of the other points....

I can pretty much guarantee that most Brits would not know who Honus Wagner is, so I am not surprised that Billy Meredith seems obscure to US collectors. However, I am pretty sure that most Brits would have heard of Babe Ruth. I could be wrong, but I think that this is reasonable given the amount of cards issued overseas that include him (pretty much like Pele - the global super star with cards of him issued all over the world). Therefore, in defining my "Wagner" I was looking for a valuable card of an amazing player / HOFer from a highly collected prewar set that was not just the rookie card of the sports best player - that is easy. I was also trying to stay away from post war cards in the spirit of the Wagner (which would include all Pele cards).

BTW, Billy Meredith had a 20+ year career and have many cards issued of him and he (and Steve Bloomer) are probably the top two early British Football stars. Of course there is no true Wagner of soccer cards... was just hoping to have fun with some entrants and see what others thought.

This was just meant to be a fun conversation and I was hoping to get some other "entrants" to the game from other posters to see what other cards are out there.

This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.

Yeah... those are all good choices for the other sports... I would add the Rocky G Leaf for boxing as well. It is hard to say that any high dollar soccer cards have been auctioned until very recently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion, not knowing much about this, any topic in a soccer card discussion has to begin with Pele. So if he has a rare, expensive, but not impossible rookie -- that's a good enough analogue to the Wagner for me.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my opinion, not knowing much about this, any topic in a soccer card discussion has to begin with Pele. So if he has a rare, expensive, but not impossible rookie -- that's a good enough analogue to the Wagner for me.

The Quigol Pele card being mentioned in this thread is the card Anish (page one of this thread) uses for his avatar. Heritage just sold a PSA 8 of the card for $33,600 last month.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...Auction-120115

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

The Quigol Pele card being mentioned in this thread is the card Anish (page one of this thread) uses for his avatar. Heritage just sold a PSA 8 of the card for $33,600 last month.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...Auction-120115

That's a pretty good return for the guy who likely paid a fraction of that. World Cup bounce or market shift, I guess we'll see.

[Anish]

There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You mean Graziano.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Anish

There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.

I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is an interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.

[aljurgela]

And the fact that nobody can propose any prewar alternatives probably makes the whole topic clear.... outside of Pele rookies, there are no other real potential Wagner cards.

From my perspective, the Meredith 1913-14 Taddy is still as good a choice as any. But I would also propose some alternatives (which also do not trade)...

Would anybody like to see some of my other entrants to the conversation?

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

... than the Billy Meredith.... Over the next week, I will post 5 or so alternatives, though I may need to go into post war....


Al

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Anish

Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because it’s a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You can’t describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. That’s not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobb’s or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldn’t with a straight face hold up either and say it’s the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD

I understand what you are saying. But there are 60-70 Wagners in existence. It's $400,000 just to own a beat-up, folded and mangled example. There is no other sport with a $400,000 beater that is so plentiful. There are more Vezina, Nagurski and Mikan cards in existence, but those are also a few thousand dollars to own an example instead of $400,000.

There are lots and lots 52T Mantles in existence and that is an $8,000-9,000 card just to own a beater example, because it's baseball.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

The Graziano card is an interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

You're right. I forgot about that.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

Nearly my entire collection is obscure rarities worth only a couple hundred dollars each. The Amelia Earhart card I am using for my avatar right now is a legendary rarity from the 1938 Heinz Aviators set. I could not believe when it showed up on eBay with a reasonable BIN.

[aljurgela]

Ok, Since most did not like my Billy Meredith 1013-14 Taddy & Co. pick, my next proposal would be the Ferenc Puskas 1947 Nannina. So let's start with the player.

For those that do not know Ferenc Puskas was a legendary Hungarian icon. He averaged nearly a goal per game at nearly every stop in his career - club or country. He is probably best known for his time at Real Madrid playing alongside Alfredo Di Stefano where they won many title (3 European Cups, 5 Spanish division)... and this is all in the back half of his career (after he was 30). Prior to his defection, he led Hungary to the gold medal in 1952 and the World Cup final in 1954 (where they lost 1-0 to Germany).

You can get some basic insights from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Pusk%C3%A1s

In the end, he is rated as the #6 all time player by IFFHS, #7 by World Soccer, #7 by Top End Soccer and #17 by the FIFA internet poll. He was also given the IFFHS award for the Top Scorer of the 20th century and the annual FIFA Award for the most beautiful goal is called the FIFA Puskas Award.

Bottom line, this guy was legit.

So now onto the card. His rookie cards (as far as I can tell) hails from a 1946-47 Nannina issue from Italy. It includes many national teams and is made to be hand cut (think dotted lines like the Post cards from the 1970s).

Here are the current populations:

PSA has 3 grade d- a 2, 5 & a 6
SGC had 4 graded - an "A", SGC 45, SGC 50 and SGC 60

That is a total of 7 graded copies. It has also come to my attention that PSA is no longer taking submissions of this card, though I do not know why.

To follow up with a few of the points raised by others. This card does trade every now and then. The last time that it traded was on eBay about 6 months ago. A hacked copy brought more than $2k, which was quite surprising to me (I was not the bidder or the under bidder). Therefore, I can only believe that there are some people out there than feel that this is an iconic card. I surely do. With that, I hereby open the flood gates to other comments and points of view!

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Actually, the 1960 Hemmets Cassius Clay in PSA 10 beat it by a wide margin. But to extend the analogy, I would consider the Clay the 1952 Mantle of boxing and the Graziano the T206 Wagner of boxing.


As for soccer cards, I am enjoying the discussion but haven't the expertise to chime in other than to say that an iconic card needs a combination of great subject, interesting back story, and sufficient availability so that enough people can own one. Otherwise, it becomes an obscure rarity. I have dozens of extremely rare cards with far fewer examples than the T206 Wagner. I would trade them all for it.

Adam...

but wouldn't you say that this was completely unexpected? Also wouldn't you agree that a Clay in similar grade to a Rocky G would not even come close... Rocky would take him down no problem in a similar grade?

[aljurgela]

The Jose Nasazzi rookie card?

First off, this is as good a place and any to talk about how generally in soccer collecting - like many other sports (most prominently American Football and Basketball) - defenders do not get much respect. OK, they can get some respect - think Ozzie Smith in baseball or Rodman in basketball or Gary Payton or the hottest corner of the day in the NFL - but not much as a group. Soccer is much the same way. You need to be AMAZING to get any notoriety at all. Collectors and historian tend to focus on goal scorer's not goal "preventors" - save for the occasional great goalie like Lev Yashin or Beara.

Hence, most ratings have very few defenders in their lists of greatest players - save perhaps the most famous one, Franz Beckenbauer. OK, when onto Jose...

Nasazzi was the captain of soccer's first dynasty - the Uruguayan National Team. Uruguay won the two most important soccer tournaments of the 1920's - the Olympic Games in 1924 and 1928 and follow that up with a win in the inaugural World Cup in 1930 (where Nasazzi won the Best Player Award). Nasazzi was the leader on the field and because of his efforts and notoriety, Top End Soccer has him as the 75th best player ever. and IFFHS has him as the 26th best South American Player of the 20th Century. Read more about that here:

https://iffhs.de/iffhs-history-south...ury-1900-1999/

While this write up is pretty poor, you can learn more about him here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Nasazzi

OK, here is the card... by the way, one of these cards traded a couple of months ago on eBay and only brought a couple of hundred dollars (I bought it), but I think that it worth much more. Let me know your thoughts since nobody seemed to like the Puskas rookie card: