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  #1  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:14 PM
brett brett is offline
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Default I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...

Hello, I'm new to this board and I wanted to share an observation and get everybody's thoughts. In my 1912 T202 Hassan Triple Folder set I noticed a picture on the center panel of the "Lord Catches His Man" card and I'm sure the Cleveland player sliding is Shoeless Joe Jackson wearing the Cleveland style jersey that he wore when he played for them during that time. I looked around the net and I couldn't find mention of this anywhere and the back of the card doesn't mention the sliding player's name but it sure looks JUST like him. Opinions?
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:17 PM
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Welcome to the board Brett, and I must say your first post is a provocative one. I certainly see some resemblance, but that's a tiny photo and it's tough to do really good photo i.d. with it. But it's food for thought.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:25 PM
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Couldn't it also be Lee Tannehill who is also featured on the other portion of the card?
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:28 PM
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I was looking at the "C" on the uniform of the sliding player and by the power of suggestion thought "Cleveland." But it's probably Chicago so that rules out Jackson.
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:30 PM
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It is not Tannehill since he played on the same team as Lord (White Sox).
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrc32 View Post
Couldn't it also be Lee Tannehill who is also featured on the other portion of the card?
Michael,

Not likely as Tannehill played his career with the White Sox and Lord was on the same team.

Brett,

Welcome to the board and great observation. It seems like it could be ole Shoeless.

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What David said.
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Last edited by T's please; 05-21-2010 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Not quicker than David to post.
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  #7  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:34 PM
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I just checked Marc Okkonen's uniform book for 1910-11, and the sliding player is wearing a Cleveland home jersey, and the fielder a Chicago visiting jersey. Interesting.
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  #8  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:35 PM
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As Brett mentioned, the player sliding is wearing a Cleveland uniform.

Here is a T5 of Jackson from Hunt Auction:


Last edited by David Halpen; 05-21-2010 at 03:37 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:35 PM
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Hi Barry... Thanks for the replies, but that is definitely a Cleveland jersey from that era, and here's a pic of Shoeless Joe wearing it with Nap and Ty...
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  #10  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:36 PM
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Hi Brett- we were posting at the same time, and my last one confirmed what you just said.
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  #11  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:38 PM
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The jersey is Cleveland, and what can be made out of the player resembles Shoeless Joe, but as already mentioned I think a conclusive ID is going to be tough. I can think of a few others on the Cleveland team at the time (Falkenberg, Birmingham, James off the top of my head) who it could also be.
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Old 05-21-2010, 03:42 PM
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Here is the 1912 Naps team (couldn't get a 1911 quickly):
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  #13  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:49 PM
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I really appreciate everybody's thoughts and I'm happy that my first post wasn't a stupid one. Anyway, I'm a pretty big aficionado of Cleveland baseball history, and I know who all of the other guys you've mentioned are. When you look at this card in person it looks so much like Shoeless Joe's face that I'm almost sure that we've discovered something together here. I just wish we could see in the picture if he's wearing shoes.

Last edited by brett; 05-21-2010 at 03:56 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:54 PM
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Default "Lord Catches His Man" card and I'm sure the Cleveland player sliding is Shoeless Joe

Why do I have this weird feeling people are scouring their personal collections and ebay looking for "Lord Catches His Man" cards
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  #15  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:56 PM
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Check the ear.
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  #16  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:57 PM
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Default Hey

Welcome to the board Brett and congratulations. Your first post has gotten more response than all of mine put together

I don't have much to add about the card except that there are some great photo ID guys here. I'll be following this thread closely.
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  #17  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEIDEMEG View Post
Why do I have this weird feeling people are scouring their personal collections and ebay looking for "Lord Catches His Man" cards
http://cgi.ebay.com/1912-T202-Hassan...item35a92eff47
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  #18  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Halpen View Post
It is not Tannehill since he played on the same team as Lord (White Sox).

Yeah....makes sense
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:10 PM
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My last opinion on why I believe it's him is that on the back of almost every other center panel in the set it mentions all the players names involved in the picture as many of them were also featured on the side panels of other cards in the set. For players like Nap Lajoie or Sam Crawford who were only featured on center panels, their names are still mentioned in the back descriptions. Because Shoeless never authorized any tobacco cards and just became a full-time player that year I think it might explain why his name is not on the back of the card. Other Cleveland players who were named on the backs of other center panels or had their own side panels were Birmingham, Turner, Lajoie, Ball and Stovall. Besides, just look at his face... I'm 99.9% sure it's him.

Last edited by brett; 05-21-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:13 PM
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Default Welcome aboard Brett

The Triple Folders are a 1911 issue, which would most likely reflect the 1910 season. Shoeless Joe played most of the 1910
season for the New Orleans Pelicans (and batted .354 to lead the the League). With Cleveland, he played in only 20 games
Therefore, the probability of the guy in this centerfold being Joe Jax is minimized. However, it does resemble him.

Nice observation.


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Last edited by tedzan; 05-21-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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  #21  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:23 PM
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I thought the T202s were issued in 1912...
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  #22  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The Triple Folders are a 1911 issue, which would most likely reflect the 1910 season. Shoeless Joe played most of the 1910
season for the New Orleans Pelicans (and batted .354 to lead the the League). With Cleveland, he played in only 20 games
Therefore, the probability of the guy in this centerfold being Joe Jax is minimized. However, it does resemble him.

Nice observation.


TED Z
Hi Ted, no disrespect but this set is DEFINITELY from 1912. I've worked very long and hard to put a high-grade set together and it's my favorite set of all-time. Here's the description from Wikipedia...

The T202 Baseball card, also known as the Hassan Triple Folder was manufactured and distributed in the year 1912. The card was inserted into packs of "Hassan Cork Tip Cigarettes".[1] Several characteristics make this vintage Baseball card a standout amongst other forms of tobacco advertising of the time and lend to its value as a highly sought after collectible.

First and foremost the cards are quite large in comparison to the T205 (1911) and T206 (1909 to 1911) cards from the same time period. The T202 was designed as a triptych or as it is referred to in the baseball card collecting hobby a triple folder. Each of the end panels displayed an individual player in color, while the center panel contained a black and white photo of "live action" baseball players.[2] To insert the card into packs of cigarettes the two end panels were folded over the center panel. When the card is fully extended it measures 5 1/4" wide by 2 1/4" high.[3]

The T202 set consisted of 132 total cards with numerous combinations of end panels and center panels. Prominent players of the time who appear on the most end and center panel combinations are Christy Mathewson, who appears on ten different cards all on end panels, and Ty Cobb, who appears on a combination of over six different cards including end and center panels.
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  #23  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:36 PM
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Default Joe...

The picture looks more like Joe than any other player I could imagine from Cleveland. I think Brett's theory is right on... Very interesting observation and I am surprised that it has never been brought up before.... Has this been under the radar all these years ? I think it makes sense and looks just like him pending the ear lobe is not too low and the point of his nose is perpendicular to his eye brow.
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  #24  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:46 PM
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Too bad the card isn't entitled "Jackson out at third". Of course if it were, it would be selling for 4 figures.
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  #25  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:02 PM
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Apparently, someone thinks it's Joe Jax.....three of the cards have been BIN'd on ebay just this afternoon.


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  #26  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve d View Post
apparently, someone thinks it's joe jax.....three of the cards have been bin'd on ebay just this afternoon.
lol
I think one of the W game action cards was similarly purported to be of Cobb - they still sell as commons. Too many on the Cleveland team with similar characteristics to tell here with any certainty, though if Mark says otherwise, I reserve the right to retract my comment .
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  #27  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:36 PM
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Baseball-Reference is showing that there were 38 players on Cleveland's team in 1911. So if this photo is from 1911, there is a 1 in 38 chance that it is Jackson. Personally, the photo is so hard to see I don't think you could really make a determination. But purely gut feeling tells me that Jackson looks like a baby in his T5 and that guy sliding into third has the look of a grizzled veteran to me. It also looks like th sliding player's stirrups don't continue to their foot, while both photos of Jackson show him wearing stirrups that go all the way to his feet. Although that could just be the angle.

Last edited by packs; 05-21-2010 at 05:40 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:47 PM
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Let's see if this card starts showing up on ebay with the description T202 Joe Jackson. My gut says it will.

Last edited by barrysloate; 05-21-2010 at 05:48 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:51 PM
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I also think Brett deserves an award for the best first post ever!
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  #30  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
Let's see if this card starts showing up on ebay with the description T202 Joe Jackson. My gut says it will.
I don't think there's any doubt. And the beauty of it is that unless someone can prove it's absolutely not him, the seller can't be held accountable.
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  #31  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Baseball-Reference is showing that there were 38 players on Cleveland's team in 1911. So if this photo is from 1911, there is a 1 in 38 chance that it is Jackson. Personally, the photo is so hard to see I don't think you could really make a determination. But purely gut feeling tells me that Jackson looks like a baby in his T5 and that guy sliding into third has the look of a grizzled veteran to me. It also looks like th sliding player's stirrups don't continue to their foot, while both photos of Jackson show him wearing stirrups that go all the way to his feet. Although that could just be the angle.
I'd say it's a much better than 1 in 38 chance. Half the guys you're talking about were pitchers who had a total combined 537 plate appearances, while Joe had 641 alone that year. He also led the team (by far) in hits, doubles, triples, steals, and average (.408 that year). In fact, if you want to go by stats it's MOST LIKELY that it would be him sliding into 3rd in that picture. Also, he looked very grizzled from a young age. Look at more pics of him. He also has the same ears, face, and long and lean build.
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  #32  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:58 PM
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After I analyzed the evidence, with a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors, I have concluded that it could be anyone on the Cleveland team in 1911, but if I were going to make an educated guess, I would say it is either Joe Jackson or Ivy Olson.

I couldn't resist using a line from one of my favorite movies

r/
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  #33  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:05 PM
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Also, this is how old he looked in 1910...
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  #34  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:19 PM
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Thought provoking... Though it means little, "Cobb sliding" was 1909.
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  #35  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:28 PM
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No disrespect, but on the basis of that tiny image, with cap pulled down, no one could reasonably be 99 percent sure about the identify of this player -- in my opinion.
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  #36  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T's please View Post
After I analyzed the evidence, with a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors, I have concluded that it could be anyone on the Cleveland team in 1911, but if I were going to make an educated guess, I would say it is either Joe Jackson or Ivy Olson.

I couldn't resist using a line from one of my favorite movies

r/
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  #37  
Old 05-21-2010, 08:46 PM
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Interesting observation, Brett, and welcome to N54!

Here's a closeup image, cropped, with a little bit more contrast...

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Old 05-21-2010, 08:55 PM
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Default It's not him.

He never would have been thrown out at third.
ever.

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  #39  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:00 PM
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Default Brett

Upon closer observation, he does pass the "ear test"....I have to agree, it's Joe Jax.

But, it begs the question....why wasn't Joe featured in this set ?

He did bat .408 in 1911, and he certainly deserves to be on one of the panels.

Actually, the bigger question is....why isn't Joe on any of the ATC cards (1912-1917)
featuring him as a Major Leaguer ? ?


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Old 05-21-2010, 09:09 PM
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I don't see how we can make a positive identification without being able to see his hair or his eyes, on a tiny image. I don't disagree that there is a resemblance, and it could well be he, but that hardly is proof positive.
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:18 PM
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Curiously, "Lord catches his man" bears a resemblance to "Harry Lord at third." On that card, there's also an unnamed Cleveland player sliding in, but you can't see his face ...
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:24 PM
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Default Re Pic....

Peter - There is not proof positive, but I think common sense says this is probably him due to resemblence, ears on blow up, etc. -- I would say it is more likely him than anyone else on the team. I like Brett's argument even though it can't be proved either way.

Were these panels taken from a photo/negative ? Was there a particular photographer for the orginal panel ? I don't know much about the T202's, but it would be neat to know the source of the middle panel...
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  #43  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:28 PM
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How could it POSSIBLY go this long without anyone noticing.
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  #44  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:37 PM
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It could be Joe. I am thinking it is.
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  #45  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:41 PM
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According to this site

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...26tbs%3Disch:1

This is a pic of Jax sliding into third
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  #46  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:42 PM
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weird almost simultaneous posting lol
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:47 PM
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That's funny we both had the same idea Peter.
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  #48  
Old 05-21-2010, 09:49 PM
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It would be very nice if the original photo could be located in an archive somewhere. Then, we might be able to get a definitive answer.


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Old 05-21-2010, 10:39 PM
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I don't think that without finding the original photograph with subject documentation that any definitive answer can be had. But the resemblance is certainly there. Nice catch possibly.
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:44 PM
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Ok somebody fess up! Who bought it?
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