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  #51  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:41 AM
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I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3S...ew?usp=sharing
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  #52  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
Just saw the list and it was disturbing. Was shocked (not really) to see that someone shilled me. You hear about it all the time but when you see the actual proof, it makes you sick.

I don't know many of the names but will hope to find out whether any of these consignors or shillers are associated with any active Auction House today. It will be a perfect time to remove them from my list of AH's that I bid on.

This list is only a drop in the bucket.

Who can you trust in this world?
1+ I would like to know that too
  #53  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
Just saw the list and it was disturbing. Was shocked (not really) to see that someone shilled me. You hear about it all the time but when you see the actual proof, it makes you sick.

I don't know many of the names but will hope to find out whether any of these consignors or shillers are associated with any active Auction House today. It will be a perfect time to remove them from my list of AH's that I bid on.

This list is only a drop in the bucket.

Who can you trust in this world?
If you go through the list, you will see former Mastro employees who are currently (as far as I know) still employed with other auction houses.
  #54  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3S...ew?usp=sharing
Nicely done and thank you. That was the simplest and best solution to share the document.
  #55  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bn2cardz View Post
I saved a shareable version to my google drive. It should be accessible through the following link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3S...ew?usp=sharing


this works great, was very interesting... anyone else remember all of TJ Schwartz's holier than thou articles about the hobby? lol
  #56  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
I think shilling other peoples' auctions happens more than you think, though it is hidden under the guise of "Protecting one's investment".

Say you pay $5k for a card today, then next week another one in the same grade comes up for auction. Nearing the end of the auction it looks like it's going to sell for $3500, so you bid it up with no intention of winning it to give the illusion of it maintaining the market value that you set for it with your $5k purchase.
I guess so, but how would you know that you weren't going to win the auction that you had no intention of winning? You would have to know what the max bid was, and that's the main case against Maestro and his cronies...
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  #57  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:53 AM
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I would like to see a summary of:

1. Current Grading Company Officials
2. Current Autograph Authentication Company Officials
3. Current Auction House Officials
4. Current Dealers/eBay Sellers
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  #58  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:56 AM
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There are alot of scumbags in this world..
  #59  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:57 AM
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Who is Hal Lewis???
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  #60  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trobba View Post
How would someone shilling for a friend (or themselves) know how high to go without purchasing the item?

I get how Mastro could be "protected" in their shill bidding because they could conceivably use someone's max bid against them.

How would I know if a $10,000 item was shilled up to $15,000 that someone would bid one more than me? Wouldn't there be ample times when I would get stuck, as the shill bidder, with the item?

Or were most shill bids up to a reasonable price and not way above market prices?

Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes View Post
There were many instances on this list where a name that was listed as the "winning bidder" was also listed as the "shill bidder" for the same item.
You accomplish this via an agreement with the auction house. Other people shill the card up to the desired price hoping someone will get caught up in the bidding and overpay. If nobody overpays, the shill bidder goes down as the winning bidder, but card and money do not change hands. Looks legit from a distance, AH has increased profits, consignor has increased profits, everybody wins......except the winning bidder.

For the consignor, the worst case scenario is that nobody overpays, he keeps his card, and the most recent sale of his card is nice and inflated when he consigns it again 4 months down the road.

Worst case for the auction house, they don't get a hefty buyer's premium but they can now advertise a NEW RECORD PRICE for whatever card they sold in a press release and on their website.
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Last edited by chipperhank44; 01-28-2016 at 12:02 PM.
  #61  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:58 AM
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I'm sorry but I can't help but to find it humorous that some of the most egregious shillers were also victims.
  #62  
Old 01-28-2016, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf441 View Post
I guess so, but how would you know that you weren't going to win the auction that you had no intention of winning? You would have to know what the max bid was, and that's the main case against Maestro and his cronies...
I was more speaking in general, and not necessarily related to Mastro. And yes, you wouldn't know the max bid....that's why sometimes shillers do win unintentionally.
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  #63  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksabet View Post
I'm sorry but I can't help but to find it humorous that some of the most egregious shillers were also victims.
Quickly glancing... is it that or is it just that they won an item back or helped another consigner win an items back. I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine sort of deal.
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  #64  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:02 PM
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Sickening.....but not surprising. Thank you for sharing the list. Some very disgusting stuff.
  #65  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Young View Post
Quickly glancing... is it that or is it just that they won an item back or helped another consigner win an items back. I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine sort of deal.
Not sure, there are different line items for winners and "victims" so I am assuming this was determined.
  #66  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:07 PM
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I think we should start creating our list.

If the shiller or consignor is with a current AH, then they will be part of this list.
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  #67  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:07 PM
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Here's an interesting one:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70892

Apparently this was the only Lionel Carter auction that was shilled. I very much doubt that Carter himself was involved in the shilling - I doubt this would have been his one auction to choose to shill. I would guess, instead, that Mastro had knowledge of the highest bid and then did this in order to increase the premium.
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  #68  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Econteachert205 View Post
anyone else remember all of TJ Schwartz's holier than thou articles about the hobby? lol
Yup, used to be the first thing I turned to in Tuff Stuff
  #69  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:13 PM
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I noticed a couple from PSA's "Board of Experts" in the shill bidder column. One in particular is seen many times.
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  #70  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:17 PM
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This list was NOT put out by the govt. Doug Allen entered this document the way it is into the proceedings. I believe This list was carefully gone over and researched by the govt before it was made. But then again what do I know?

Also, NOW is the time to write a letter to the judge if you are concerned. Sentencing is in 2 weeks......

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604


Case No. 12 CR 567-2 United States Vs Doug Allen


I am contemplating it...

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  #71  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:17 PM
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Damn, that is a L-O-N-G list!
  #72  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:18 PM
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Sure am glad I haven't bid in any auctions. I think I will appreciate a good ebay Buy It Now auction more from now on.
  #73  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pariah1107 View Post
Damn, that is a L-O-N-G list!
I am bleary eyed and my head is dizzy from all the nay shaking it is doing.
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  #74  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:24 PM
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Darryl Abramowitz?

Tom C

Last edited by btcarfagno; 01-28-2016 at 12:24 PM.
  #75  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:24 PM
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Seriously, out of control. I was probably nave, but there were a lot more than I expected there. I don't even know how this is fixed in any auctions today even if the auction house does not own the auction software. Many of the shillers seemed to be friends and relatives of the consignor. So even with today's auctions, they would just have different accounts and would not be caught. Basically, the auction house (or ebay) is not directly involved in the shilling activities. However, they turn a blind eye to monitoring it.
  #76  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:28 PM
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During that time period I was busy keeping my business afloat and didn't bid in any auctions. Fortunately, if floated. That said, it has to be disheartening for those who were gouged.
  #77  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:30 PM
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Makes me glad I collect on the low end of the hobby. If I chased high dollar-value cards and my name appeared as a victim, or if my account had been used to place a shill bid, I'd be furious.
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  #78  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:31 PM
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Totally disgusting.
  #79  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
or if my account had been used to place a shill bid
Uhh....I think you would know if you shill bid or not. Besides...you've done a far worse thing.

Last edited by bobbyw8469; 01-28-2016 at 12:36 PM.
  #80  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 View Post
Uhh....I think you would know if you shill bid or not.
Well, of course I would. However, there seems to be some belief that people inside Mastro used bidder accounts without their knowledge - perhaps inactive accounts?
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  #81  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:39 PM
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Per Andrew Moore, "The Government only identified a 'victim' for 347 of the 2,463 auctions". It's pretty obvious that the 2000+ auctions that don't list victims actually do have them. I was somewhat sympathetic to Doug Allen's plea not to do 57 months in jail, but I'm over that now.

Another thing to remember (and there's a lot to take in here) is that this list is just for those years where Mastro didn't destroy their records. This list would likely be much, much longer if they had that info.

Bill
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Last edited by bcornell; 01-28-2016 at 12:39 PM.
  #82  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard View Post
Can someone please share the list?
Yeah I'm wondering why this appears to be secretive on this board.
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  #83  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:40 PM
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There are some entries that are clearly instances where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid by running up the total: Peter Spaeth's name shows up as a shill bidder and winner on one entry [August 2007]. Chad Dreier is shown on one as well [see June 2007]. I don't believe either of those guys had anything to do with Mastro's scheme; I do believe both were cheated as a result.
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  #84  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshchisox08 View Post
Yeah I'm wondering why this appears to be secretive on this board.
Post #51 in this thread

http://net54baseball.com/showpost.ph...0&postcount=51
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  #85  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNP777 View Post
Thanks !
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18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
  #86  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:44 PM
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I naively thought that only the big boys bidding on high value lots got shilled. I got shilled for $200. Sad.
  #87  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:47 PM
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any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.
  #88  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
Who is Hal Lewis???
Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town
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  #89  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z28jd View Post
Used to be a regular on the board, who had an impressive collection, then sold it all off. If you search his name and his shill bidders name, you'll see they share the same profession in the same town
And...I believe he was a high fallutin lawyer of some sort!
  #90  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:51 PM
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I was shilled once for $379 + vig (amounts seem to be only the hammer price) but apparently I wasn't a "victim."
  #91  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:52 PM
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I would love if Keith Olbermann spoke up about this. He was the victim on quite a lot of the top dollar items.
  #92  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
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I was shill bid on the T206 Wagner I won for $160,000 for a client of mine in their 2007 live auction. Wow, what a mess this is.
  #93  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati View Post
I would love if Keith Olbermann spoke up about this. He was the victim on quite a lot of the top dollar items.
I just emailed this to Olbermann.
  #94  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:58 PM
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I wasn't a "victim" either, but I was shilled. I wonder what that means.
  #95  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Econteachert205 View Post
any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.
Something I was wondering and hoping for.
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429/524 Off of the monster 81%
49/76 HOF's 64%
18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90%
22/39 Unique Backs 56%
80/86 Minors 93%
25/48 Southern Leaguers 52%
6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60%

237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW

Excel spreadsheets only $5
T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!!

Checklists sold (20)

T205 8/208 3.8%
  #96  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:16 PM
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For those inquiring about why no victim is listed in the document for many of the entries. I found this in the document which seems to explain the reasoning.

"It is my understanding that for the remaining auctions in which the Government calculated a loss but did not identify a “victim,” the identified shill bidder either placed the
winning bid or the “shill bid(s)” did not immediately precede the winning bid. As such, it is my opinion the actual loss on these auctions is $0 because the “shill bid(s)” did not have a direct financial impact on the winning bid."


So essentially if a shill bid was used to bump the lot from $500 to $600 and then legitimate bids take the item up to $1000. The government is listing a "loss" of $100 on the item but not identifying a victim because the 2nd high bid is judged to be legitimate. Based on that then it would seem that most of the shill bids were placed to push items up to a hidden reserve early on in the bidding rather than attempting to max out the final sale price with late shill bids. Not defending or attempting to excuse any of this behavior, but I thought that context was important to note. I never bid or consigned in a Maestro auction so not directly affected by this but it is very discouraging and makes me question a lot.
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Last edited by Shoebox; 01-28-2016 at 01:29 PM.
  #97  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:23 PM
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iwantitiwinit iwantitiwinit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Econteachert205 View Post
any thoughts as to whether this could contribute to price deflation in the market? There has been widespread false price discovery here. Maybe it's old enough not to matter to prices now.
I would think there has been false price discovery without a doubt, however, I'm not so sure it will contribute to price deflation.
  #98  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:46 PM
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Stonepony Stonepony is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
There are some entries that are clearly instances where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid by running up the total: Peter Spaeth's name shows up as a shill bidder and winner on one entry [August 2007]. Chad Dreier is shown on one as well [see June 2007]. I don't believe either of those guys had anything to do with Mastro's scheme; I do believe both were cheated as a result.
Could you please walk me through how you came to the conclusion that this is "clearly and instance where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid"? What do you base that on? I don't see the logic....at all .
  #99  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:56 PM
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h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Here's an interesting one:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70892

Apparently this was the only Lionel Carter auction that was shilled. I very much doubt that Carter himself was involved in the shilling - I doubt this would have been his one auction to choose to shill. I would guess, instead, that Mastro had knowledge of the highest bid and then did this in order to increase the premium.
thank you...my point exactly. Some consignors may not have known about their items being shilled. But I'm sure most on this list did.

And how did Mastro determine which auctions got shilled? Did he base it on the bidding activity, relationships, town in which the consignor and shiller lived? Or side agreements he made with each of these individual consignors/shill bidders? I'm sure there are other folks out there who have made arrangements with friends/family to shill bid an auction without Mastro knowing about it. So, this begs the question, "is this list complete?" (for 2007-2009 Mastro auctions).

And yes, the inflated price phenomenon is certainly an issue here that can't be ignored...especially with price transparency sites like VCP.
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  #100  
Old 01-28-2016, 01:59 PM
Shoeless Moe Shoeless Moe is offline
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Leon, any chance you can run the schiller list up against your members list (past & present, with user name too), would like to see and possible hear from them, although like cockroaches you flip the light switch on and I'd bet those people arn't long for here.

And if someone can post all the schillers and the current auction houses they work for I believe that could be enlightening.

Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 01-28-2016 at 02:03 PM.
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