here is the deal with SGC "authentic"

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Posted By: leon

Hey Folks,
Just got off of about a 30 minute call with Derek at SGC. Again, he seems like a very nice guy and a person truly interested in benefiting the hobby (obviously, also making a profit for his company- who wouldn't?)....Some things we discussed. 1. He feels that there is a good possibility that they will do this (authentic) in the near future. Taking all things into consideration it looks good. 2. Will probably not want to grade a card that has been deemed "altered" in ANY way. It just opens up too many issues. If they graded "authentic" - trimmed....then someone could say that the card was also in-colored (sic?)....and want to press them for mitigation. Not good. He just does not want to slab an altered card. I see his point. 3. If this does go through they will probably open it to ALL cards not just vintage. Why not? 4. He will probably not post on the board as there would be too many questions coming at him of a personal nature. Such as "my card is a 40 and you gave it a 30?"....."how soon will my cards be graded?"..."since I now know you can't you give me a better grade?".....etc etc.....I don't blame him for this. I assure you he has nothing to hide and his company offers a guaranty on every card they grade. Enough said. 5. He will be watching the board but will not post for the reasons stated above. .....hope I have helped a little here folks....that's all I was trying to do......best regards all

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Posted By: David

is that you should send any grading complaints through him.

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Posted By: leon

Here to help............for a fee just kidding....I have oft thought, along with others, that an "authentic" grade is what I really want....I can try to decipher the grade on my own... what I have always wanted with EVERY card I sent in was to know that it was not altered.....the grade was just a sideline item as it is subjective....regards

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Posted By: petecld

About your 5 points:

1. <<SGC using "authentic" grade>> Great, they should have done this a long time ago.

2. <<grading authentic, but altered cards>> I think this response was a little cop-out. Shouldn't they be looking for color alterations too? What's wrong with an assessmant of: Authentic (trimmed, color added). Don't they look for that kind of thing now? What if they just used 2 qualifiers: "Trimmed" for cards that are trimmed and "altered" for everything else. Tell the card owner what they feel the alteration is let the submitter decide what to do with the card? In the Comic Book field AGC(?) will grade a book and state on their label any level of restoration. What's wrong with doing this with Baseball cards?

3. <<ALL cards not just vintage. Why not?>> Certainly, why not all cards.

4. << Not wanting to post on the board>> Don't blame him at all, we can be brutal.

5. Yes, Leon this is a help. Thank You for putting the time into this. I'm sure I speak for most, if not all of us who read this board.

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Posted By: David

I agree that such a service would be useful and welcome. You and many others say SGC is top notch, and I don't have any reason to disagree. I only needled you because didn't once say how cute my dogs were.

Now, if Derek wants me to say really nice things about SGC, he's going to have to say nice things about my dogs. Derek-- you listening?-- so you don't get them mixed up, Jack's the younger one. He likes walkies. Henry, he's more of a chew toy type of guy.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Sounds good except for the cop out on slabbing altered cards. There is no reason for it if the card is legit. Grading it "authentic- trimmed" or other alteration notes should be no problem since the cards is still authentic, just someone altered it in some way whether by trimming, coloring, restoring, etc.

Jay

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Posted By: roy miles

Leon,
Excellent idea. SGC is the best!!

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Posted By: leon

Your comments are welcomed and valid. I think the cost might be a factor in giving all of the details (not sure though.. as time it takes being a cost)..He seemed pretty adamant about not slabbing altered cards though....I don't think it was a cop out of not looking for added color. He and I did not speak about that specifically. I would think that they black light all cards which would hopefully catch most added color.(I am very amateur in this area)..Not sure what the cost is of grading a comic but I have been interested in comics (mildly) and know exactly what you are speaking about. This thing ain't official yet so there is certainly time to make adjustments. Derek is like management in my company- very open to good ideas that make cents (pun intended) and are feasible. Let the debate continue......

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Posted By: Elliot

I like the idea of grading cards as authentic. In my mind this should also include cards that have been trimmed, color added, paper added, etc. To address some of Derek's concerns perhaps there should be two authentic grades----1) authentic and 2) authentic-altered, without detailing what the alteration is. After all, even with the alteration the card is authentic.
I also think that Derek should be willing to post occasionally on this board to explain things, much the same way as they talk newspapers and industry magazines. Obviously I do not think that he (they) should be getting into discussions as to when somebody's cards will be graded or why it was given a specific grade. I would envision him posting much in the same manner as Bob Lemke.
Thanks Leon for bringing this topic up for discussion, and pushing the idea of an authentication grade.

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Posted By: leon

First of all thanks again for sponsoring the board. It is a great forum. I think that when/if SGC slabs a card as authentic they will want it to be 100% authentic ....meaning not tampered with in any way. This is still not a cemented policy so your feedback will be taken into consideration I am sure. As far as him posting I am pretty sure that a lot of folks visit and don't post. To each their own....and I do understand his reasons BUT maybe over time he will post. Not everyone has as much screw off time as me or is as vocal (thank goodness )....and of course
best regards

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Posted By: Tom

Leon........sorry to be a dunderhead here but what would they be slabbing as 'authentic' if not something trimmed or rebacked or whatever? If it is 100% authentic then it should be qualified to get a grade and not need just the 'authentic' label. It would be deemed authentic because it was slabbed with a grade.

Otherwise, the most useful service would be to slab cards that were trimmed and altered. Maybe you make the distinction that anything ADDED to cards would invalidate their encapsulaton as 'authentic' but not anything taken away from the card. Don't know. Just don't see the 'value add' of 'authentic' if not for some altered cards.

Sorry to be the devil's advocate (or just himself) but to be truly useful, it would have to go farther in my estimation. Maybe 'authentic' is given with the caveat that it falls under a different, non-moneyback guarantee, but I still fall back to those Lipset lots of E107's and other E cards from the McPherson collection.

That would be a lot of potential revenue they would be dismissing because of trimming. And it would be a SERVICE to the collecting community because they might otherwise be passed off unscrupulously (okay, I know I spelled that wrong probably) on ebay. Encapsulation as 'authentic-altered' or just 'authentic' would ease the mind of MANY a new collector (and some not-so-new ones).

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Posted By: HalleyGator

LEON:

If they start slabbing cards as "authentic" that are NOT trimmed ... then is this just because the owner of the card does NOT want a grade to appear on the card???

If so, then I am probably against the concept, because I can see the SLEW of stuff on EBay:

"This card was authenticated only ... but it WOULD have been a 70 if it had been graded...."

I agree that they MUST grade all cards that are slabbed (and not altered or trimmed) ... since THIS is what gives us the ever so valuable POP reports that we use to rank our cards, etc.

AND ... if they DO start to slab TRIMMED and REBACKED cards as "authentic" ... then they MUST put on the label ALL the reasons why the card is NOT being graded as "real".

OTHERWISE, you will have EBay sellers saying: "The ONLY reason this card was not graded is because of a slight wrinkle" ... when in reality the card was rebacked, trimmed, colored and doctored in every way imaginable!!!

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I think this a great topic. I love the idea of getting a card graded (if it's authentic!) weather it's trimmed or altered. Some people still buy trimmed cards for fillers, as long as they know it's authentic. If SGC will not grade an altered card then I don't see the point, I mean isn't the point of sending a card to a "Grading" company, is to have it graded. What I'm trying to say is that if the card is unaltered and authentic then it will be slabbed, so who cares about the grade especially on the rare cards. The way I see it is this, and I know I'm not alone here, I really hate to get an altered card back with no true definition. Sure they say it's altered, but where, how . Maybe they could add some kind of report card with the return of a altered card, or slabb the card with an "Authentic Trimmed" or " Authentic Colored" ect. on the lable. I would feel a little better when I got the card back. At least I'm getting some plastic for my $20. I hate to say it, but from a bussness stand point I don't think that day will ever happen, I mean SGC is only charging $7-$20 a card. I bet that they actually save quite a bit of money by not having to slabb altered cards. I know they only pay a few cents when it come to the slabb itself, but they also don't have to pay the printer and press operator ether, and when you add up all of those penny's and concider they have got to be encasing 100's of thousands of items, and I would say atleast 10% if not more have got to be returned as altered, it adds up to a lot of savings. So if they decide to slabb everything that comes in the door, regardless if it's altered or not, then it will cost them more money in the long run for sure. The same prices they've been getting but insted of returning the card raw, in will have to go through the encasing process. SGC is the best bar-none, but bussness is bussness. "If it ant broke why fix it!" Keep up the great work SGC!!! Just my opinion of course!
Trevor

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Posted By: petecld

I never thought about what a grade of just "Authentic" REALLY says and how it leaves the buyer with other concerns.

There would HAVE to be some qualifier along with the "Authentic" grade.

How about SGC entombing "altered" cards, and labeling them as such, but not offering a money back guarantee based on the alteration. JUST the authenticity. That seems fair to me.

Hey, do we get a cut for doing their marketing research?

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Posted By: leon

Hey Trevor,
I appreciate the response on the topic. Yours is a valued opinion. (BTW for the record I have not spoken with Derek about any specific question on the board yet.) These thoughts are my own and I am doing this because I have wanted to get cards authenticated without a grade before. I think mine was originally a different reason than that of a lot of other folks though. Sort of like getting to the same conclusion but for different reasons. Anywho, with all due respect I think you might be forgetting about the good will, the extra revenue (while some fixed costs will remain the same-amortization(sp?)), differentiator value, etc.. You do make some good points about them saving money though on ungraded/slabbed cards. I never really thought about that. How would you feel about the grades like you said of "authentic- altered", "authentic- colored, altered" etc...? Maybe they could charge $5.00 extra to recoup costs? On a <$500 card it would seem worth it. Just some thoughts.....we'll see....

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Posted By: scott brockelman

folks, lets face it,the real reason everyone wants "authentic" grading with no number assigned is due to the fact that they so rarely agree with the given grade. you just want to know your t206 ty cobb, etal, is real and untampered with, but not a 30 when you think its an ex card. i am as guilty as the next person, ownership adds 1-2 grades to the card. i hate like hell to send "my" exmt tobacco card in and it come back vg/ex or ex, so most folks would like them to just verify its originality and forget the subjective grading so they may call it what they want, which IS fine, not everybody agrees on a grade on a given card, each has his own parameter's.

i disagree with the idea we will open a pandora's box on ebay or other venues, the educated buyer will be able to discern his own grade, with the comfort of knowing that a third party has already examined the card for any potential "problems".

i do think not think they should encapsulate cards with a myriad of problems, such as trimming, coloring, rebuilding, etc. these are altered cards and are not "AUTHENTIC". if you would like a sub category of "altered but authentic" so be it. but, i firmly believe 99% of this board know the difference in a real card and a dover reprint, so whats the gain? and really who wants a altered card anyway?

again the principal purpose of this grading standard seems to enable the owner to validate the originality of a card and assign his own grade. which i support!

hope this doesn't offend anyone, just my objective opinion from the outside looking in. i gotta see leon this weekend anyway and you know he'll load up on me!

scott brockelman

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Posted By: Elliot

Scott, I respectfully disagree with you with regards to grading altered cards. I think people with cards that are trimmed (for example) want to know that the cards are authentic as much as people with unaltered cards. I think you summarize it quite well in your two contradictory (IMO) statements. The first...99% of this board know the difference in a real card and a dover reprint, and the second....again the principal purpose of this grading standard seems to enable the owner to validate the originality of a card . If 99% of the people know the difference (whether the card has been altered or not) why then do they need to validate the originality of the card, and if they need to validate the orginality of the card, why does it matter whether it has been trimmed or not.

BTW, Good Luck with Leon this weekend you'll probably need it

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Posted By: leon

Hey Elliot,
Only in the spirit of a friendly debate am I defending my opinion here. Heck, there probably will be no right or wrong answer, but there will be an ultimate decision on SGC's part if they do this or not. This thread is a good thing with bringing all points of view together, at least for those folks that even consider a slab. I am not trying to team up with Scott here although his position is close to mine. Go back and read his statement (and am not speaking for him either..his neck is bigger than my thigh....ugh..and I wouldn't do that)... he said 99% of the people know the difference between a dover and real.( that is true). He also said

"again the principal purpose of this grading standard seems to enable the owner to validate the originality of a card and assign his own grade. which i support!"

he is talking about the grading standard (potentially "authtentic") helping the owner be comfortable it is not tampered with, NOT that the owner knows it anyway.....I believe Scott knows that is one of the problems with cards. (not being able to tell it's been altered)

Maybe I missed something (have before) but I think you might have missed his point. Bottom line for me is I want a card in a holder that I know has not been altered but I don't need someone else to tell me the wrinkle they see with a microscope on the back of my '25 Gehrig lowers it 2 grades.....I would also support an authentic but altered slab with the type of altering found....so far this sounds good...who knows what SGC's response will be as there is probably something we are not thinking about..I have utmost confidence that SGC will make a good case for whatever they do or don't do though...best regards and thanks for the good feedback ya'll........

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Posted By: HalleyGator

But Leon ... aren't you the one who is longing for an accurate POP report on all these vintage cards?? If they just get sent in and slabbed as "authentic" (assuming this means that they are unaltered and untrimmed but just NOT graded) ... then how will we EVER know what condition those other cards out there are in??

I like being able to see that my card is the highest one ever graded by the grading services ... or when buying a card I like to see how rare it is ...

But if the POP report just says: 10 "authentic" 1887 Old Judge King Kelly cards have been slabbed ... NONE of us will ever know how many of those, if any, are better than ours (yours)??

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Posted By: leon

Good points. I don't remember saying I wanted a more accurate POP report but I cetainly might have. Since I believe I have the highest graded Buchner Gold Coin (SGC 92 Kelly) I am happy. Do I think there are others that are not graded that are in better condition? Maybe. Maybe not. I am comfortable knowing that of the ones that ARE graded mine is the highest (as far as I know today anyway)......I think the more I do this the more I buy the card and not the holder though.....the grade is so subjective and like it was mentioned before the POP report is somewhat inaccurate it just makes sense to be careful regardless of the number on the plastic.....I don't think it would devalue our graded cards if the "authentic" grade was adopted either.....again, we should still be looking at the cards and not the holders....just some more rambling thoughts........

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Posted By: Elliot

Leon---I don't think we disagree very much on this subject. We would like to see an authentic grade, AND we would like to see an authentic grade with an altered designation. We also agree that the ultimate decision will be SGC's or any other grading company that decides to bring (or not bring) these options in. I also think we agree that this kind of friendly debate is excellent for fleshing ideas out, and there is no reason for everybody to agree, as long as it's done in a civilized manner.

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Posted By: petecld

Scott,

What do you mean when you say, "...do not think they should encapsulate cards with a myriad of problems, such as trimming, coloring, rebuilding, etc. these are altered cards and are not "AUTHENTIC".

if I take a real, untouched E94 Cobb and cut the top edge off or touch up the color or remove a piece of tape isn't it still an authentic E94 Cobb, just tampered with or restored?

I always assumed a grade of "AUTHENTIC" simply meant the card was REAL but tells me nothing if it is tampered with or restored.

In my view, qualifiers like "trimmed" or "restored" are a whole seperate level of evaluating a card.

Like you said, "... 99% of this board know the difference in a real card and a dover reprint..." but what about the xx% of collectors that may be able to tell if the card is real but NOT as able to determine if the card is trimmed or restored in some way? I would think a card graded "authentic - trimmed" or "authentic-restored" would be of great service to them.

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Posted By: Tom

That the vast majority of people buying these slabs are probably not even members of this board. Plus we all may be aware of cards like those in Lipset's auction (McPherson trimmed caramels) but others might not. So the 'authentic but altered' category COULD/WOULD be of great help to many. In addition, to Halley's point, another column in the grading companies pop reports could identify cards that have been graded but altered which would also help verify/justify the hyping of those 9's and 10's with a truer population of graded cards. Not to say that everyone would run to get the 'authentic but altered' but I've definitely got some that I would want in holders.

The other service that SGC etal could offer would just be a holdering service to put a card in and give the series it was from with NO assertion of authenticity or grading or anything. I don't like this but it would allow some that want the encapsulation to be able to get it.

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Posted By: leon

If I take a piece of tape off of a card I do not consider it restored or tampered with. Maybe you do. best regards

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Posted By: David

My feeling is that this service will be fairly pricey and not used on run of the mill cards. I think Plasticdog's point about the cards not being able to be graded by the owner if it's in plastic is an excellent one, and that alone should prevent it's widespread use. However, I think there are cases where 'judge to be authentic' without grading is resonable and maybe even desirable. A T206 Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back, where the edges were handcut is a good example. I agree with Plasticdog that some indication of grade would be most desirable ('Vg but handcut' or 'Ex appearance but trimmed on all edges so we can't give grade'), but in this case plain 'Judge to be Authentice' is a respectable alternative.

What and how to entomb should be done on a case by case basis, but I think if the 'judged authentic' service is done it should be done on altered cards (assuming that the alteration is not so extensive as cause legitimate questions about the card's integrity-- example, less than half the card is there). Otherwise, I don't know what the point of the service would be. If it's not altered and can be graded, then it should be graded.

I don't wish to beat a dead horse, but I reiterate that the straight use of an 'authentic' header withouth propor explanation, at least when applied to special material, is fundamentally unsound and PSA did a grave mistake in choosing to go this way. In the fine arts, if you did this to a valuable painting, you would be laughed off the stage. One of the main tennats in examination of fine arts is that your formal written judgement is your opinion and cannot be represented as Word from God. It is fine to say on occasion, "In my opinon, I am virtually certain that this painting is authentic," but you never say "This is 100% authentic and there is no question about it." The 'authentic' title without propor explaintin is saying the later. If someone says he all the answers and can give absolute opinions of esoteric matierial, this is proof by itself that they don't know what they are doing. The properly trained will freely say that she does't have all the answers and absolute answers can't be given, and any Letter of Authenticy or Letter of Examination will clearly indicate that they are offering their opinion.

If they are going to use the 'absolute' designation, SGC and PSA has to indicate that it is their judgement and preferebly include an explantion. "Judged to be authentic" is a resonable designation. "Authentic" followed by "After examining this card, we beleive this card to be authentic" is resonable."

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Posted By: Marc S.

Here is PSA's:

"Grading involves individual judgments that are subjective and require the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to lime. Therefore. PSA disclaims any warranties, express or implied with respect to the grade assigned to any card, as well as any liability whatsoever to the card's owner or submitter, except pursuant to PSA's guarantee resubmission policy then in effect."

To me, it is implied that it is their professional opinion as opposed to 100% certainty. Most people in this hobby, I think, take that as part of the game when they buy and/or sell graded cards.

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Posted By: jay behrens

removing tape from a card is going to leave some kind of mark, whether it is loss of paper, adhesive stain, etc. As long as it has not been trimmed or changed from it's original state, then it should graded the same as a card removed from scrap book or that has gum or wax stains.

To me, an altered card is a card that someone changed in some way in order to make the card seem better than it really is. Removing tape or removing a card from a scrap book would not be a altered card but merely a damaged card that should be graded appropriately.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

...

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Posted By: petecld

Leon,

I agree with you. Taking tape off isn't restoring or altering to me. My question was more about how Scott said that a trimmed (or altered) card would also be dropped from being called "authentic". I just use those process as examples for my question.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I knew some smart ass would come up with something else and I am sure there more that would fall into this catagory.

I'd say erasing pencil marks falls under the the tape, glue catagory of removing something that was not originally supposed to be there. I know that with a really good eraser, depending on how dark the lead and if the writing left an indentation, i have been able to remove some pencil marks without leaving a trace that it was ever marked.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

...using the back of an x-acto knife. Didn't damage the card, but wouldn't this trip the black light as well?

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Posted By: MW

edited

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Posted By: Charlie

I have Proof cards from a sheet I would want to get graded...I know PSA does it and would like SGC to do it as well

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Posted By: David

I hope I didn't sound impolite in my response. While I'm firm in that opinion, I realize and that we can all often have resonable differences of opinion. It is never my intention to sound disrespectful.

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Posted By: David

That text applies to grading, which I'm not talking about. Further, that so many people on this board complain about PSA's variances in grades given and, at times, the questionable authenticity of entombed cards, might suggest that their grading procedures should not be used as a gold standard to be applied to authentication.

There are many prominant people in this hobby who do a tremendous job of representing their paid expert opinions-- including James Spence, an employee of Collector's Universe (PSA)--, and I welcome authenticators to emulate them.

Though I don't have experience with them, so many people on this board rave about SGC. So I won't be suprised if they end up doing a wonderful job.