Dang it.....Have ya'll been listening? "Original"

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Posted By: leon

I really, really was going to let this thing go but I just have to say ya'll would not make good salesmen on this subject. Would ya'll please respond back to my question and comments. The problem is the grades are very subjective ie...my Matty. Not one person on this board would rate it a vg (don't go there MW )...LIKE I SAID BEFORE....Derek, at SGC, was adamant about NOT SLABBING ALTERED CARDS. Authentic is an ambiguous definition in the grading of cards...sort of like "all or nothing".....what I am proposing now is a slab (like for Matty) that says "original" without a number on it. NO qualifiers, no nothing. This card would be unaltered in ANY WAY. PERIOD. It would just not have a grade on it. I do want to be careful here too as I could be cutting my own throat. Might the value of cards go down without the numerals? As far as not being able to see blemishes in a holder....I disagree....I think I can see the card extremely well through the plastic (I just did it to prove it to myself again)..You can surely see the wrinkle on Matty can't you Plastic Dog? I am not saying you can see 100% but more like 99.8% or more....you get the idea...I don't think there is much hinderance (sp?) of the holder. That's just my opinion and I can see the disagreements coming now. Here's the last question I hope I have to ask (and that ya'll might kindly answer)...WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH HAVING AN UNALTERED CARD IN AN "ORIGINAL" holder WITHOUT a grade? Ya'll just didn't answer the above question....thanks a lot ya'll I do appreciate the time ya'll have spent on this.....best..

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Posted By: runscott

I don't see a problem with it, for people who want cards in slabs but don't plan on re-selling them. I wouldn't do it - my opinion is that the card would bring less if you tried to re-sell because buyers would question the seller's intent. But who knows

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Posted By: Plastic Dog

YOUR "AUTHENTIC" MATTY WOULD BE ADVERTISED AS NM/MT ON EBAY, AND A COLLECTOR WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME PICKING UP THE FLAW IF IT'S ENTOMBED IN BULLET-PROOF PLASTIC!!!

That's the problem Leon. Authentic-graded cards make it difficult for a buyer in any transaction to closely examine the card; it takes away all of your senses except sight. (Remember John Wojak talking about using touch, sight and even smell?) The only reason that most collectors accept the current system is that the "scrutiny" of the card was done by a 3rd party (possibly neutral) grader. With "AUTHENTIC" grades, such scrutiny is no longer possible. And that could mean a difference of overpaying by thousands of dollars for a card.

There are many flaws that you can only be certain of when actually handling the card.

Leon, you would be setting us all up for a bad situation: buy an "AUTHENTIC" card advertised as NM (or even EX, as you want to do with the MATTY), get the card, and you have no way of demonstrating a flaw to the seller. You can't get it graded without taking it out of its "AUTHENTIC" holder, you can't even feel the card yourself to confirm suspicious about hair-line creases, etc. Yet the seller says it's authentic, no problems.

DO YOU THINK THAT REAL - NOT REAL IS THE BIGGEST QUESTION IN THE HOBBY? NO WAY. THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS ALTERED - NOT ALTERED, BY FAR!!! MOST OF THE CARDS WE'VE QUESTIONED HAVE BEEN "AUTHENTIC". THINK ABOUT THE FULL COUNT BOARD: EVERY PRO GRADED CARD, INCLUDING THE MANTLE, IS LIKELY AUTHENTIC (BUT REALLY ALTERED). THE NOTORIOUS SGC DOYLE CARD WAS AUTHENTIC. EVEN THE BAD FRONT-BACK COMBO T206 CARDS ARE AUTHENTIC (THOUGH FROM 2 DIFFERENT CARDS). WE ARE ALL MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE DUPED BY A RESTORED, IRONED, TRIMMED, OR BLEACHED CARD THAN WE ARE BY A COUNTERFEIT.

BUT TO ALLOW SUCH CRAP TO BE SLABBED AS "AUTHENTIC," BUT WITHOUT ANY TYPE OF GRADING TO GO ALONG WITH IT, IS TO TIE THE COLLECTORS HANDS BEHIND THEIR BACKS WHILE GIVING AN EDGE TO THE UNETHICAL SELLERS. HOW CAN YOU REALLY THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD THING?

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Posted By: MW

Plastic Dog --

Well said!

As far as I can see, the grade of "authentic" or "original" (with or without a qualifier) may inevitably be an attempt by some to circumvent the grading process.

I think I speak for at least a few others on this board when I write the following:

If you don't like the grading system or standards, don't get it graded. Describe the card accurately and sell it ungraded instead.

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Posted By: leon

Hey Tom,
See here....I am throwing my hands up ....can you see that....a 5'10" balding guy throwing his hands over his head....that's me.........that is how I feel when I read your response. Did you EVER see where I said I wanted an "authentic" grade? Please show me in this thread where I did?? I said I that maybe "original" is a better term/grade. But even though you did not get that part I tend to agree with yours and others thoughts on this whole matter. There are probably too many reasons NOT to have a card in a holder without a grade. Unfortunately it comes down to unscrupulous (sp?) dealers and hobbyists. Folks like have been mentioned in other threads selling cards they know are not even close to how they describe them. I am not going to get a card in a holder without a grade. We'll see how Derek feels but I would think there could be too much controversy. I still think it could work but oh well.......... I will be subjected to subjectivity forever....at least I tried and I now have much more info to at least base my views....please carry on and I will let you know sometime early next week what Derek/SGC thinks......best regards

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Posted By: Plastic Dog

we all still respect you. You seem like the most ethical, un-jaded person around most of the time. Which is why you didn't immediately see all of the downside to an AUTHENTIC or ORIGINAL grade. You just want your nice cards in holders. I respect your motivation, just not the plan.

But, as we are all for sale at some price, I will be happy to argue your side to the bitter end (for a measley FOUR BASE HITS KELLEY).

Tom