Anybody else sick of MLB?

[HercDriver]

I'm a huge Ron Santo fan and read the Santo HOF thread with interest, but never replied. I typed out about five different replies about why Santo belonged in the Hall, but never hit send for whatever reason.

Now Ryan Braun, the MVP, tests positive for drugs BEFORE he won the MVP! I know baseball has had it's eras - bigots like Anson and Cobb, gamblers like Speaker, Cobb, and the Black Sox, drunks in 50s, LSD in the sixties, and steroids now. MLB always works through it, I guess. But it really makes me appreciate a guy like Santo, who dealt with diabetes his entire career and loved the game for what it was. Mark Grace was another guy like that - those are my HOFers. You can have the rest...I'm done with these guys like A-Rod, Bonds, and Co.

Good night, Jose Cardenal, wherever you are...

Take Care,
Geno

[old-baseball]

As far as I'm concerned it's still 755/61.

[HRBAKER]

Where you find massive amounts of money, there to you will often find bad behavior. Is anyone surprised? Maybe it's a false positive.

I agree with this good sir. I appreciate the players that played because they loved it. The first player I ever collected was Hoyt Wilhelm for the same reasons you listed above.

Tony

[drc]

They are behind as far as testing goes, but in the NFL if you fail a drug test you are ineligible to win any year end awards. Happened because Shawn Meriweather nearly won the Defensive Player of the Year in the season he was suspended for three games.

[mannybb24]

I can't wait until they start testing for HGH. There's a reason why the Players Association in the NFL backed out of that one when they were suppose to start testing this year.

[drc]

It's safe to say there's a lot of PED use in the NFL. Anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

[alanu]

Problem is, my understanding is there isn't a definitive test for HGH.

Steroids have been around for a long time, so whose to say some of the players in the 70's weren't using them too.

The players taking the PED's might have just as much love for the game as anyone else, it has more to do with what you will do to be able to play that game at the highest level.

[novakjr]

I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

[Batter67up]

It is really amazing how these players continue to try and find a way to cheat and think they are not going to get caught. So can we call Matt Kemp the 2011 NL MVP?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

David,
It would certainly be nice for that to be the case for a change.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by old-baseball

As far as I'm concerned it's still 755/61.

Agreed

[ChiefBenderForever]

Maybe he thought it was a vitamin supplement and didn't know what he was taking.

[alanu]

Originally Posted by ChiefBenderForever

Maybe he thought it was a vitamin supplement and didn't know what he was taking.

That's the standard excuse of all the guys who get caught. They have enough money to do some testing before they start taking any supplements.

[HercDriver]

He failed the first test, then a subsequent test, according to ESPN. So yep, maybe it's not real...

Originally Posted by novakjr

I'm perfectly willing to wait and see what happens with the Braun thing, before making judgement...Obviously due to the past 20+ years we're all more that willing to assume the worst, and to an extent, I believe there would some justification in that assumption. He may or may not be in the wrong here, but we've gotta keep level heads and wait for everything to come out.

Having said that, he was probably using..

[calvindog]

I really like Ryan Braun. I really hope this isn't true.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

He failed the first test, then a subsequent test, according to ESPN. So yep, maybe it's not real...

The subsequent test, was just a second test on the original sample, to see if it was a natural variant or synthetic. Anything could've happened.. Like I said though, "he was probably using", I just wanna wait until everything's sorted out to make a definitive judgement..

[byrone]

I visited the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown last month. For me, being an active fan of major league baseball ended with the strike in 1994. At the HOF, I would carefully look at historic displays, then come across a more recent artifact and move right along without giving it any notice. I don't want to be cynical, but they (players and owners) lost me in '94. In it's place, old time baseball, for all its faults and follies, takes the place of todays games. I don't know todays players, even the big stars. This years Cy Young winners or MVP's...not a clue. And that's unfortunate.

[fkw]

If those chain smoking taters w/gravy eatin party to all hours daily during the season alcoholic greenie poppers would have lifted a weight during their career, maybe those numbers they put up might still stand.


I like all Eras of Baseball, they all have their good and bad sides...


PS Im 45 yrsold 210#, and can still do 20 pullups and 100 straight pushups.... (did it today) But I also shop only at healthfood stores and farmers markets and do heavy yardwork daily...
wonder if DiMaggio Ruth or Williams could do 20 pullups at 25 yrsold let alone 40??? I wouldnt think so looking at their bodies... IM sure Foxx could before he hit the bottle...

[alanu]

The real test will be when Braun comes back and if his HR production goes down or if he starts getting injured.

[HercDriver]

Maybe he is innocent...they should have just told the MVP voters that he failed his test, but he's appealing it. I wonder how that would have changed the voting. Why was it withheld?

Originally Posted by novakjr

The subsequent test, was just a second test on the original sample, to see if it was a natural variant or synthetic. Anything could've happened.. Like I said though, "he was probably using", I just wanna wait until everything's sorted out to make a definitive judgement..

[DixieBaseball]

I love MLB. I am sick of cheaters in MLB. This can be said for NFL and some other sports. What should bother anyone that pays for a ticket to a game or spends money towards professional sports or has a son playing sports is they have to compete against these cheaters and perhaps lose out at different levels in ball, whether it is high school, college, minors, or pro level. I would love to see all the major sports get uber serious about ridding cheaters from sports (Specifically, those that take hgh, drug enhancers for performance) There is nothing like seeing a natural athlete do their thing. I am hopeful Braun is still that athlete. If not, lump him in with Bonds, A-Roid, Sosa, etc. - These guys mean nothing to me.

[Fred]

Perhaps the test results were withheld from the MVP voters because Braun indicated it was an error and they didn't want to hose him over for the MVP award (if it was an error). If it's not an error then they just hosed over Matt Kemp. I'd have voted for Kemp if I were voting. I just hope that there was an error. Baseball doesn't need anymore of this crap.

[3-2-count]

Anybody else sick of MLB?

Yep, have been for quite some time now.

[drc]

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by drc

This is exactly why I only watch track & field. No drugs.

lol

[Bigdaddy]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the voters did not know about Braun failing the test because the commissioner of MLB used to own the Brewers.

With that said, I still am a fan of MLB, and MiLB, and baseball in general. Related to what another poster said, it is all driven by money and ego. The same thing that happened to this hobby in the 80's and into the 90's - folks (and companies) saw a potential for profit, and tried to abuse the system to their advantage. Its still going on today with the proliferation of fake cards and autographs. But that does not mean that I'm going to quit the hobby. If you watched the World Series this year and those 7 games did not get your juices flowing, then you should check your pulse.

[drc]

It's the writer's association not MLB that votes and gives the award. The voters may have had no knowledge of the test, and MLB can't make the writer's association take it back.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by fkw

I like all Eras of Baseball, they all have their good and bad sides...

+1

The system is flawed, guys basically juice to a 3-1 testosterone to epitestosterone level. The test doesn't come back positive until its 4-1. Just try to enjoy baseball for what it is...

[Clutch-Hitter]

"Nails" is the person I most remember from the 90's. He was a little sherman tank running around shouting at everybody. This is him on a 1988 card and a 1993 card. I figured something was going on back then and not just because of Dykstra, there were several suspicious looking guys. It seems like it would be tough for a man to maintain a physique like that lifting weights while enduring a grueling 162 game season. If I'm not mistaken, those drugs can serve as injury prevention, lengthen a career, etc. I'm not saying Dykstra did it, but I did in fact think it.

I watched McGwire in '98 in Atlanta, got there early for BP. The man was a beast out there, a giant compared to the others, and he was hitting BP balls in places no other players were coming close to. It seemed like he viewed the field as we would if we were hitting on a 200 foot little league field - get it in the air and its gone. But the thing is, I would guess that a very, very large percentage of players were using. If so, they were all playing on the same field equally. Even a non drug using McGwire could have done amazing things, but the thing was, the drugs helped him through the season,and he usually couldn't play a full season. I have a McGwire bat from the 2000 season, when he hit more than thirty home runs before the half way point. There are red ball stitches that remained inside the deep seam impressions after impact:

All the drug use was revealed when? After 2001? I've been sick of it since '01 and Bonds, and I have only good memories of the 98 season, regardless. I was sick of the NFL when Terrell Owens pulled a sharpie out of his sock in the end zone, signed a football and gave it to an adult friend of his. It was disgusting. I'd rather watch McGwire than even a drug free Terrell Owens type.

Santo is in, so its Dale Murphy's turn. Murph makes appearances and speaks against drug use, and he says it as if it was in baseball while he was playing. Injuries definitely shortened his career and hurt his number during the last few years.

Almost forgot (not my cards):



And Frank, Ruth, Dimaggio....were elite athletes, weights or no weights. IMO, a player's abilities should only be compared to players from the same generation. Ruth was above and beyond all other players during his generation. He's the all-time greatest IMO, period, no matter what A-Rod does. Cobb was the greatest of his generation IMO. A different method of keeping who has what records could alleviate a lot of the controversy, such as dead ball to live, post dead ball to pre-war, war to 1990, 1990 and drugs to present.

When it comes to living out childhood dreams and knowing everybody else is likely using, a man is going to do what he has to do to stay there...or get there. And managers want their big dollar guys to be healthy, not saying they knew or anything as I didn't follow the drama, but it just seems like common sense. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against it, but at this point, its impossible to watch a game and not wonder, examine physiques, etc. The smart guys probably don't lift weights while using. Its going to be very hard to eliminate it and the variations.

The recent drug use got Santo in, IMO. Make two hall of fames. One for pre-1990 and 1990 and later.

[dabigyankeeman]

I dont see Braun blatantly doing drugs, i bet he took some supplement or medication that raised his testosterone level and i dont believe he is a druggie. However, even if he took the stuff unknowingly he could still be suspended. Interesting how so many are rushing to condemn him on most forums i am on, what happened to innocent until proven totally guilty? I think he is a good guy and that will come out in the end (hopefully).

As to the MVP, when was the test done? Even if he was guilty, is it possible that he started right near the end of the year? Also, to those who say Kemp should now be the MVP, when was his last test, who is to say he is clean?

And going way back, who knows what was in those hot dogs The Babe was eating!!!!!!

[obcbobd]

I love the game, but its played by people with personal faults. I can overlook that.

I mean we collect cards from much more relatively worse times in MLB history;

The Color Barrier

Black Sox Scandal

Almost total control of a player's future by greedy owners. Imagine signing up with an employer at 17 or 18 and never being able to work at your profession for anyone else. At any time your employer can force (via trade) you to move across the country to work for another team with you having no say - ever.

And a well deserved enshrinement to Santo.

[HercDriver]

The "innocent, until proven guilty" works in most venues...but baseball used that up long ago...

Cheers,
Geno

Originally Posted by dabigyankeeman

I dont see Braun blatantly doing drugs, i bet he took some supplement or medication that raised his testosterone level and i dont believe he is a druggie. However, even if he took the stuff unknowingly he could still be suspended. Interesting how so many are rushing to condemn him on most forums i am on, what happened to innocent until proven totally guilty? I think he is a good guy and that will come out in the end (hopefully).

As to the MVP, when was the test done? Even if he was guilty, is it possible that he started right near the end of the year? Also, to those who say Kemp should now be the MVP, when was his last test, who is to say he is clean?

And going way back, who knows what was in those hot dogs The Babe was eating!!!!!!

[Clutch-Hitter]

Regarding players from different sports that I've seen:

My favorite basketball player:Michael Jordan

I'm not a basketball fan, but I watched nearly all of Michael Jordan's games with the Bulls. There was no telling what he was going to do day in and day out, and he was a team player. I was playing ball at Birmingham Southern when he joined the Barons. He bought our soccer team an incredible bus for road trips.

My favorite football player: Joe Montana, and a close second: Barry Sanders - after an incredible touchdown, hand the ball to the ref, back to the sideline.

Favorite Baseball player: Fred McGriff - Similar to Sanders

Not sure what the point is in mentioning that, unless it was to say that I never saw Santo play and have no perspective except for stats alone, and we all know stats aren't everything in a team sports.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Anybody else sick of MLB?

Yep, have been for quite some time now.

Yes indeed. Between the PEDs and the ridiculous cost of attending a game if you want to sit anywhere except the prison yard atmosphere of the cheap seats, I have had a waning interest in the modern game for quite some time.

[CubsFanCurt]

I'm with you on this Geno. I'm sick of all the PED's and HGH's and all the other crap. I think Andre Dawson summed it up best at his induction. Anyone that takes that stuff knows it's illegal and knows the concequences. If anybody could have benifitted from HGH, it's Hawk.

And a double thumbs up to your support of Mark Grace! He was old school IMO and I miss that

[teetwoohsix]

Here we go again. Saw this last night on ESPN about Braun and what a let down. But- I also do believe in "innocent until proven guilty", and hope this really was a case of a "false positive". Time will tell........

You would think they would start adding a clause to EVERY contract stating that if you are truly confirmed to have used/or are using PED's during your contract that your salary be retroactively reduced to $35,000.00 per year. Bring their a$$es back to the 50's and 60's where players had to work regular jobs in the off season just to get by- then maybe this crap would stop, with the fear of the gravy train being taken away..........

Sincerely, Clayton

[tbob]

Ted Williams was a fighter pilot in both WW2 and the Korean War. No telling how many homeruns he would have hit had he not volunteered for his country. I disagree with you Frank, I think Ted would have been in excellent physical condition to do all the things he did.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Seriously? He tested positive for PEDs and we're not supposed to pass judgement just because he's one of the game's most well like players? Come on! BTW, no player has EVER successfully appealed a positive test.

[HercDriver]

Yep, it's a drug test - either it's there or it's not. I was a pilot in the Air Force for 20 years and had to pee in a lot of bottles. I can't imagine how an "appeal" would go in the General's office. Then again, our union wasn't so good...we always had to work nights, in pretty dire places!

Take Care,
Geno

[WhenItWasAHobby]

This scandal is particularly disturbing for several reasons. First, from what I've read, Braun was one of the most outspoken players against PEDs. Second, I heard on ESPN this morning this failed test was known a month prior to Braun being voted MVP. Of course Bud Selig is the owner of Braun's team and is also the commissioner. Selig needs to publicly defend this clear lapse in timely punishment and if the failed tests indeed prove to be true, Braun's MVP award should be revoked.

And in response to the topic in general, yes, I'm very indifferent about MLB anymore which is sad because 2011 was the best playoff series in recent memory. Sadly, MLB keeps finding new ways to alienate fans.

[Bigdaddy]

MLB will always be behind every mess, cleaning up the spilt milk, as long as Bud is commissioner. He's the worst commissioner in all of sports, and the worst that baseball has had as long as I can remember (back to Bowie Kuhn).

I will give him credit though on the new labor agreement and getting that done before the old one runs out.

Other than that, all he has done is react to problems that others have seen coming for years.

[Ericc22]

Interesting comments going on in this thread.

For me, I love MLB. My kids (ages 11 and 12) are huge Braun fans and were really unhappy about this. My 11-year old must have asked me 12 times today if there were any updates and if he was innocent. ("Say it ain't so Joe....")

And while this stinks, and I hate the steroids and the way it is all handled, I will continue to love this game despite this. I agree with other posters - baseball of every era has had its issues. I will just choose to focus on the last day of the season, and the great playoffs and World Series.

And isn't it a bit of a metaphor for life? There is some yin and some yang, and you just have to choose what to focus on. I wish my kids weren't disappointed but it is reality. That's a lesson. We are disappointed about Braun at my house, but rest assured, we'll be looking for 4 tickets for opening day at Yankee Stadium next year!

Eric

[Runscott]

I still love going to games. No other live professional entertainment experience beats it.

But regarding Braun and those who are making excuses for him - this is a serious thing that all the players are aware of, and have been for years, yet many of them continue to try to wiggle by it. The ones who have any brains are doing anything they can to avoid testing positive, and I don't think avoiding testing positive is hard to do if you simply avoid the items that will cause it. If you have any doubts, just don't do it. Sure, he's got his reasons - haven't they all? I hope they are legit.

[dabigyankeeman]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Seriously? He tested positive for PEDs and we're not supposed to pass judgement just because he's one of the game's most well like players? Come on! BTW, no player has EVER successfully appealed a positive test.

Ha, you hit the nail on the head. I only posted that because outside of my New York team players, he is my favorite player. I was grasping at straws trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

This morning i read that his testosterone level was about twice what any other test has ever shown though, so either he took some crazy stuff or maybe possibly hopefully something is wacko.

[mr2686]

The MLB channel yesterday was saying that inside sources are saying that it was not PED's but something else that's on the banned substance list. Take that with a grain of salt.

[bosoxfan]

[QUOTE=Ericc22;946770]Interesting comments going on in this thread.

My kids (ages 11 and 12) are huge Braun fans and were really unhappy about this. My 11-year old must have asked me 12 times today if there were any updates and if he was innocent. ("Say it ain't so Joe....")


This is the saddest aspect of this whole mess. It's so unfortunate.

[MilBraves]

Just to clear up something that was mentioned in an earlier post. Bud Selig is not an owner of the Milwaukee Brewers. Mark Attanasio purchased the team back in 2004.

[ullmandds]

Huh...I find this whole thread...interesting?! Base ball is the grandest of all of America's games...quite possibly the worlds...in my opinion...it's history is rich...older than most other sports...yet riddled with controversy.

Sounds kinda similar to the hobby...of collecting BB cards. Many years ago...the hobby was about the joy of collecting...the thrill of the hunt...and the comeraderie amongst fellow collectors. Then...money got in the way...kinda like the game of baseball.

And when money got in the way of baseball...players started looking for an advantage to make more money...and to pad their statistics.

And when money got in the way of the hobby of collecting bb cards...and other bb collectibles...the crooks put their best foots forward by:

-trimming cards
-adding color to cards
-ironing cards
-stretching cards
-Wiwagging cards
-adding paper to cords
-removing color/type from cards
-basically creating fake cards

...all in the name to "pad" the grades...to ultimately make them more money.

Like Baseball...this hobby is great...will always be great in many ways...and will always be flawed as well...like everything in life...but to say you're sick of MLB...that to me...says you never really loved it in the first place...it was never in your blood.

Baseball will always be in my blood...as will this hobby whether I'm directly involved with it...or not. No matter what "baseball" does...I will always love it...as it is the best game there ever was...and will ever be.

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'd much rather direct my hatred towards the banks...corporations...the likes of Madolf...and our shit ass gov't!

You want to hold the institutions and people who run our country up to the same standards as athletes ?