PSA (OC) - What's the Point?

[mferronibc]

I am fairly new to the boards so I apologize if this is a topic that's been discussed before. I am just getting back in to collecting vintage cards - trying to build a collection for my newborn son that will give us a hobby together when he is older. I am trying to walk the exciting (and sometimes manic) balance between finding cards with a decent PSA and favorable POP report so at least I can feel good about them retaining value, if not gaining, as some degree of an investment for him - better than the stupid savings bonds people bought for me when I was born - and cards that I find visually appealing of classic HOFers so hopefully he'll develop an appreciation of the game's heroes and legends.

That lead me to researching alot on the PSA auction results site and I am thoroughly confused about the (OC) designation. It seems to drop the going price for any card by 2 full points. For example, a 1960 Mantle All Star PSA 9 (OC) just sold on Ebay last night for $345. (It was actually a really nice looking card with the all around white border you could barely tell it was so off centered but this seems like the exception). A straight up PSA 9 of the same card goes for like $1300-1350, an 8 goes for $400-600 and a 7 goes for $275-300.

I guess my question is why isn't this card just a 7?? Does it really mean anything if it is technically a 9 with an * that reduces it's price and appeal? I mean isn't centering a fundamental criteria for grading cards in the first place? If so, why does this qualifier even exist? For me, centering provides way more appeal than sharp corners. For my money I'd rather have a nicely centered 7 (or even a 5 for that matter) with 1-2 dull corners than an off centered 9. After all, isn't symmetry a fundamental biologic (and well-studied psychological) criteria for beauty and attraction?!

I'm sure it has to do something with that corners, etc show the card's true wear over time and off-centering is thought to be just an error of processing - i.e. not the fault of the person who owned it in terms of keeping it preserved. But does it matter when we're talking about overall appeal?

I'm curious to hear from people who often buy (OC) cards and what the motivation is. Is it thought to be more marketable later on as a "PSA 9"? Maybe bragging rights to your friends - "Just got a sweet PSA 9 Mantle...cough cough OC for dirt cheap..."?

[steve B]

To me, and I'm not really in the graded card market, it's a difference between ways of looking at things.

A 9 Is a very well preserved card, that also happens to have been manufactured with good centering.

A 9 OC is a very well preserved card that just happens to have been cut a bit off center. Or mare than a bit off center.

A 7 is still pretty well preserved, just not as well, the corners may be a bit more worn. Unless someone checked "no modifiers" and it's really a 9OC

To me, sometimes the corners matter more than the centering. A choice between a 7 and a 9 OC would usually be difficult.

[swarmee]

Glyn is right. Additionally, the reason they usually sell two grades lower is because they count two grades lower for a registry set.
Not everyone considers centering the end-all, be-all.

[JollyElm]

This thread may be of interest to you. I/we covered the topic of centering with a big emphasis on the ole "no qualifiers" box checking...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=265200

[darwinbulldog]

And on the evolutionary psychology question, yes but I try to resist being unduly influenced by mate selection criteria when it comes to baseball card selection, there being very few baseball cards that I want to mate with.

[jchcollins]

It's one of the well-versed arguments of graded cards, but to me - the logic goes something like this:

Many people buy cards online today not having the opportunity to physically inspect them in-hand first. If you didn't have qualifiers, it could be hard to tell just from scans why the card in question got (for example) an EX 5 instead of a NM 7 if it was centered 75/25 on the front. Is it a true "5" card with slightly rounded corners, maybe an edge ding or a surface problem - and the centering is within the tolerance? Or is it a card that got the lower grade ONLY because it didn't meet the centering criteria? In this example, if there were no qualifiers, you wouldn't really know. Both cards would be 5's. But if the centering were the only thing holding the card back, a 7 OC would be pretty obvious about that. Yes, in theory the centering plays into the grade and each grade the lower you get has a greater tolerance for bad centering. The qualifiers used to drive me nuts too, but I see their purpose. Some collectors want only really well-centered cards and don't see the need for it. Other (mainly old school, it seems) collectors could give a flip about centering and only want a sharp card that is not miscut. For them and caring about edges and corners more than centering - the qualifiers make more sense probably.

Each unto his or her own. There is certainly plenty of choice in the marketplace. Personally I think it's kinda cool that some qualified cards sell at such a steep discount now in comparison to before TPG's when whatever the flaw was likely would not even have been considered. Picky picky we are here in the 21st century. Back in the 80's and 90's cards that were badly off-centered were routinely called "Near Mint" and above by dealers. I'm glad that's not still the case, but it's funny to think how that really wasn't so long ago.

[OlderTheBetter]

The point is to get you to crack the card from it's holder and resubmit.

The only thing PSA cares about is money for 20 seconds work.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by OlderTheBetter

The point is to get you to crack the card from it's holder and resubmit.



The only thing PSA cares about is money for 20 seconds work.

PSA: Also this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mferronibc]

Great input guys - thanks for the discussion. As I’m learning more the more I search it’s interesting the degree of centering that gets labeled an OC- sometimes I can barely tell and you wonder if the card would be better off as just one straight up point down rather than a qualifier which seems to drop it 2 whole points in value. It is so true though what makes the search so fun is everyone is looking for something different that appeals to them- an unfortunately for me that seems to change week by week! Have a good 4th!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Great input guys - thanks for the discussion. As I’m learning more the more I search it’s interesting the degree of centering that gets labeled an OC- sometimes I can barely tell and you wonder if the card would be better off as just one straight up point down rather than a qualifier which seems to drop it 2 whole points in value. It is so true though what makes the search so fun is everyone is looking for something different that appeals to them- an unfortunately for me that seems to change week by week! Have a good 4th!

Sometimes they help me make easy decisions with purchases. I can have a PSA 9, or a 9 (OC) for about 1/6 the price - and it's a card that still would not look out of place in a PSA 7 holder. Yes it may be o/c, but not egregiously so. Sometimes that is a no-brainer.

[swarmee]

Here's an example:


According to PSA's grading standards at https://www.psacard.com/resources/gradingstandards/ , a PSA 6 with no OC qualifier "must be 80/20 or better on front..." 80/20 means that one border is 4x the size of the opposite border.
This card looks like it's right at 80/20 to me, visually. If the card was otherwise Gem Mint (PSA 10 quality) or Mint (PSA 9 quality), PSA would have given it a 9(OC). There is no 10(OC) since Gem Mint cards cannot have qualifiers. If it was given an 8(OC) because it was in the condition of an NM-MT card, some people would prefer that to a straight PSA 6, most would not. But those people who wouldn't buy a card with a qualifier also aren't going to buy this one as an off-centered PSA 6, for the most part. Despite being a PSA 6, this card would likely sell for a PSA 4-5 or so price.

[mferronibc]

But what I'm not really liking is the black-white OC or not OC when there are varying degrees. Take this card for example. I think we'd all agree much better centering than the '72 Schaal card above. Maybe 60/40 at worst 65/35. If it is a 9 (OC) to me that indicates other than centering the card would have been a 9 based on corners, color, overall wear.

What I don't get is that the PSA grading standards for an 8 say centering must be 65/35 to 70/30 on front and 90/10 or better on the back.

It seems to me that these cards should sell for between an 8 and a 9 then. Without a qualifier it would have been an 8 based on their own centering standards but instead usually sell for 2 grades or more lower.

Full disclose - I bought this card yesterday cause I thought it was overall a beautiful card for $185. A true PSA 9 goes for $1800-2500, PSA 8 for $250-300 and PSA 7 for $150-160. The "adjusted value" of this card in my mind should be more like $500-1000 based on what the grading truly means but the market doesn't bear that out. People just seemed so freaked out by that qualifier.

Look I know people may cringe at the dollars talk and should be for the love of the hobby, etc. Believe me it is - but no one can deny the drive to collect something that may best retain or appreciate in value for the next generation and I'm still working out what that balance is for me.

Am I beating a dead horse here?

[swarmee]

Despite possibly meeting the PSA 8 standards for centering, because it is OC both directions, PSA decided it would not get a PSA 8. They might have given it a straight PSA 7. PSA has some internal rules that state if the card would get a 1 point drop based on the centering, they give it the unqualified lower grade.
If it would be at least a two point drop, they give it the qualifier on the higher grade, unless the submitter asked for "No Qualifiers" when they submitted it.

If you are not a centering OCD collector, you can buy a lot of nicely conditioned cards for much less, as you did with your Aaron. If you sent it back to PSA and wanted it in a PSA 7 slab, they would probably do that for you under the review service. But I doubt it would ever qualify for a straight 8.

It's a strange hobby, huh?

[mferronibc]

Wow, thanks for all the input John - you are very knowledgeable about the process! I probably should understand these nuances before making these big purchases in the future but what can I say I am prone to my impulses. Guess I could have worse habits right?

I have this vision of sitting down with my newborn when he's like 8 showing him this collection I am building for him with a huge smile on his face. In reality I'm sure he's gonna stare blankly at me and be like "Can we go play Xbox now?"

[OlderTheBetter]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

Look I know people may cringe at the dollars talk and should be for the love of the hobby, etc. Believe me it is - but no one can deny the drive to collect something that may best retain or appreciate in value for the next generation and I'm still working out what that balance is for me.

I found my balance a number of years ago -- I don't buy cards that cost more than $100 graded, and I crack out every card.

I found out long ago that when I have valuable graded cards I'm much more likely to sell them in a pinch to afford some other card that will in turn be resold -- it's a bad cycle.

If you have too much skin in the game then money clouds your judegement. So I just take that out of the equation completely.

That Aaron card is sweet -- I'd love to have that raw in a CardSaver II.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by mferronibc

It seems to me that these cards should sell for between an 8 and a 9 then. Without a qualifier it would have been an 8 based on their own centering standards but instead usually sell for 2 grades or more lower.

Beautiful Aaron.

Unfortunately most people aren't going to evaluate every single card to say "well, this is a 9 (OC) but by my judgment it could still get a straight 8 and not a 7 because it's not 60/40, but it's not so bad as 70/30 and definitely not so far as 75/25..." Very few people care that much if the card looks decent to them. In those situations, I think the "mark of the beast" (the qualifier) takes over - and it will simply sell for lower. I'm encouraged that many on this thread see the value in qualified cards that are still beautiful, but I think the hobby in general still dreads them and avoids them like the plague - which is why it's still possible in many cases to get such good deals on those cards.