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  #101  
Old 02-05-2008, 07:34 AM
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Default Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>My mother told me at a very young age "Your reputation is everything"<br /><br />While I have made my share of mistakes one thing I have always tried to do in this business, be it cards, autographs, or anything i sold as a collectable was to be honest in the description and never shady in any aspect of this business.<br /><br />Everyone is entitled to a second chance, lets just hope that when given that second chance the person does indeed take advantage of it and not do whatever got them into trouble again.<br /><br /><br />Yes, it sucks not being able to get your money back. The courts for some reason did not think that was important.<br /><br />JMHO<br /><br />Steve
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  #102  
Old 02-05-2008, 10:53 AM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Steve, the FBI set up a special program for people that wanted their money back. If Micha sent golf balls he bought from Stan's he was sent his money. If he sent the baseballs that he said I sold him I would get a letter from the probation officer and I would have refunded his money.<br />The one thing I don't understand in all of this is the fact that he had my phone number and address because it was on my certs. In an e mail he sent to me he stated that he called me on the phone. Why has it taken him eight years to tell me I sold him two items. He has asked for me to prove that I paid everyone back. I just got off the phone with Tim Fitzsimmons who said he would be happy to take Micha's call. He will attest to the fact that to the best of his knowledge I paid everyone back. He will also tell Micha that if sent any items from me tothe FBI I would be told to send him his refund. Tim can be reached at 1-520-623-4306.I also emailed Micha my number and asked to call. No reply.<br />I really think it is time for us to go back to what this thread was about. Morales and Stat Authenitics. If you think that I hurt the hobby please look at the joke that is the latest CC auction. <br /> <br /><br /><br />
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  #103  
Old 02-05-2008, 11:05 AM
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not taking sides on this but as far as I can tell you have made every attempt to appease each and every person that was defrauded, even getting the FBI agent involved again. I hope the other parties are as willing to answer the questions you have posed. best regards
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  #104  
Old 02-05-2008, 02:08 PM
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Posted By: <b>Josh Siegel</b><p>Maybe Micah should just send these autographs to Coaches Corner. They may be out of business someday and there will be no where to sell fake autos?
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  #105  
Old 02-05-2008, 03:26 PM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>I'm the former employer refereed to in Micah's post. I was present when Micah spoke to Jaffe in 2003 in Atlantic City. It was an unmemorable event. I see why Micah thinks he wasn't shot straight that day. It was Bill Flemming from Tracer code who mostly spoke. It was Bill Flemming who gave the rosy picture of Shelly, not Shelly himself. Shelly was busy with multiple conversations at the booth. Jafee never corrected Bill on any of the rosy scenarios of Shelly's past and may not have heard them.<br /><br />I personally handled the return of merchandise discussed here in either March or April of 2000 to the San Diego office of the FBI. Micah's memory and account of these events are correct.<br /><br />I've known Shelly for several years. I've had many phone conversations with Shelly.<br /><br />Micah is one of the most honest people I know.<br />I believe Shelly to be doing his best to spread good will in the autograph world.<br /><br />Since I was referenced in this post and know both parties, I called Shelly today. After speaking with Shelly, he recalls our conversation in Atlantic City. After recalling the talk, Shelly offered to pay Micah for the two items in question. You can't ask for anything better than that. End of story.
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  #106  
Old 02-05-2008, 03:28 PM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I agree with John that what he said is fact.
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  #107  
Old 02-05-2008, 04:19 PM
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Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I want to thank John for getting involved and coming on the forum to back up my claims...he didnt have to. I also want to thank Shelly for the offer to refund my money. The FBI was given the items 8 years ago so I will decline but appreicate it immensely. My items were given back 4 years before the refund program began. Had I known then what I know now, I would have waited the 4 years before sending my items to them. Other dealers could say the same thing. Just the fact that Shelly has acknowledged the conversation in AC and has offered the refund satisfies me. Thank you Shelly and thank you John. Shelly and I will agree to disagree on other issues and let bygones be bygones.
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  #108  
Old 02-05-2008, 04:31 PM
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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Sounds like a plan.<br /><br /><br />Steve
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  #109  
Old 02-05-2008, 04:31 PM
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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Glad to see that this matter is being settled, thank you Shelly, thank you Micah, thank you John.<br />Let's get this thread back to where it belongs.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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  #110  
Old 02-06-2008, 09:29 PM
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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Now that everything is worked out between the parties dominating this thread, it looks like STAT isn't interested in partaking in this thread to explain anything and we will have to await for Malaysia to get back from Morales.<br /><br />I was poking around the site (www.myccsa.com to check out the scans) and found a few interesting thinngs.<br /><br />Lot #1 Jack Chesbro single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This near impossible to find, HOF worthy ball comes already pre-certified and approved as authentic by the team at Stat Authentic and book value approaches $40,000. It is a dark brown ball, vintage look and comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF'er. Ball itself is a dark 2 while the signature stands out against the dark background, can be seen and read with ease and grades an honest 4 I'd say. You'll never find another one this nice and as always, we keep the minimum low enough so everyone can have a chance to bid. <br /><br />Comment: The item they say is valued at $40,000 and that is probably a tad low as this would be the only know example of Chesbro on ball form outside of a handful Pirates reunion balls. What does "pre-certify" mean exactly?<br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold in $2,095. <br /><br />Lot #3 Cap Anson Autographed Stat Authentic Certified Baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: WOW! This unmarked, slightly reduced-size baseball has red laces and shows lots of wear and handling. It comes signed on the left-side of the sweet spot by this much sought-after baseball HOF legend. The signature is in black ink and "A.C. Anson" style. The signature shows off nicely and grades a 6-6.5 overall! Fully certified by the expert authentication team at STAT AUTHENTIC and book value is over $50,000. <br /><br />Comment: Wow! December 2006, Mastro Auctions sold what Mastro considered to be the "only" single signed Anson baseball. It commanded $73,424. The signature was not as nice as this CCSA offering. <br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $3,356.<br /><br />Lot #7 Dan Brouthers single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This impossible to find ball is heavily used and soiled and book valued at $30,000. To my best recollection, we have never seen one of these balls for sale before and what a super Cooperstown investment chance. It is a deep brown soiled and game used ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF pioneer and is pre-certified for your convenience by Stat Authentic. Ball itself is a 2 while the sought after signature is a legible 4 and can be read from 7 feet away with ease. <br /><br />Comment: $30,000 is WAY low. This again would be the only known example of his signature on a baseball. Another auction could easily get twice that or even more.<br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $ 2,084<br /> <br />Lot #7: Charles Comiskey single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This must have "Black Sox" offering comes from the tight wad, HOF owner and books near $20,000. It is a deep brown ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by "Commie" and can be seen from 7 feet away with ease. Ball itself is a heavily used and soiled 2, while the sought after, scarce signature grades a 3.5 or better. Nice display ball, already certified as real by Jeff and Ted over at Stat Authentic and with our always low asking price apparent. <br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $1,542. <br /><br />In Closing:<br /><br />So let's use Coach's Corners estimates. <br /><br />$140,000 worth of vintage, "impossible to find", "one of a kind rarities" for $9,000!<br /><br />All authenticated by the fine folks at STAT.<br /><br />DJ<br />
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  #111  
Old 02-06-2008, 09:47 PM
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>but I think that is the third Chesboro ball they've offered recently. I'd never bid there or buy an item certified by STAT.
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  #112  
Old 02-07-2008, 03:21 AM
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Posted By: <b>alan</b><p>What Coaches Corner is doing in the minds of just about everyone is criminal.However,equaliy reprehensable,is the conduct of SCD who gives them an avenue to sell this swill.SCD should stand next to Coaches Corner in a court of law WHEN the FBI gets around(way too long now)to rounding up these theives.SCD can no longer turn a blind eye to their biggest ad generator.Ignorance is no excuse.This has conspiracy written all over it.SCD has been reduced to a rag now but the editor should either close the paper down,go to a monthly,or cut this crap out before it is too late.<br /><br /> The single signed balls listed in the post above that were "sold" just dont exist.
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  #113  
Old 02-07-2008, 04:57 AM
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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I haven't read all the posts in this thread so it's possible the following point has already been made.<br /><br />In the examples DJ cites, what surprises me is not that those items didn't sell for anywhere near $140k but that they sold for as much as $9k (assuming they in fact sold). If the signatures are genuine then $140k (or some correspondingly high number) is fair market value. If the signatures are not genuine, then the items are worth the value of the baseballs, perhaps discounted somewhat because they have been further degraded by bogus signatures. This value is probably a few dollars per ball, or less than $100 collectively. So why then would people bid even as much as $9k? Do they really think there is ANY chance the signatures are genuine and maybe it's worth rolling the dice and spending a few thousand dollars? Talk about a leap of faith?!
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  #114  
Old 02-07-2008, 06:38 AM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>I'm curious to get feedback from the autograph authorities of the board because I'm not one. If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid? If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number? I'm curious to what degree you guys feel the buyers in the big auction houses are buying the ball or the LOA? I hope this isn't a stupid question.
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  #115  
Old 02-07-2008, 07:28 AM
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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Actually it is a very good question, I too would like to hear this answer.<br /><br /><br />Steve
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  #116  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:02 AM
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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Interesting questions. I don't profess to be an autograph expert so my thoughts will be based on a collector's perspective. <br /><br />"If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid?" -- Without provenance and/or a LOA from a respected authority, I don't believe the ball would have sold well in ANY auction, much less one with a questionable reputation.<br /><br />"If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number?" -- Assuming there was nothing about the ball that violated the "raise red flags from visual inspection test" (e.g., a 19th century jersey that looks like it just came off Modell's shelf), then yes, if it had comparable provenance/LOA to the other Anson ball Mastro sold and was in comparable condition, I believe it would have fetched a similar number to the price Mastro realized for that other ball.
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  #117  
Old 02-07-2008, 09:11 AM
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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>The value is based primarily on the trust of those issuing the baseball. It's not about "what the signature" looks like anymore, but where does it come from and who authenticated the ball. IMO. Mastro "claims" that this is the only known baseball, but how are we to know that this is in fact an honest accessment to the quantity of balls out there? The fact that it was Mastro and that JSA and/or PSA/DNA says it's good, automatically puts in the minds of the general public that it is in fact good which is a naive system of thought, but the only one we have. <br /><br />That SAME ball from Mastro in CCSA would bring typical CCSA numbers simply based on reputation. After all, CCSA has a revolving door of rarities, thirteen times a year that sell for pennies on the dollar. There are so many collecting players out there with big bucks looking to buy and sell rarities and Coach's even last month, had cut signatures of John Clarkson, Buck Ewing, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson and why are great dealers like Kevin Keating staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was? Why doesn't Mastro (or the consignors) buy up the Coach inventory every month and put it in their auctions? <br /><br />People pay these prices because they want to truly believe that they are getting a bargain. It's the same reason people pay $5,000 for a T206 Wagner. <br /><br />I noted this before and the true villain here is Sports Collectors Digest and it's wonderful to see the hobby turn their back on what was once prominent and respectful voice. <br /><br />Bob<br /><br />I went back to the CCSA site to check something out and their new auction is up already. Among<br />the highlights: Josh Gibson signed pants (I think the last pair sold for under $200), 1939 Induction Baseball, Albert Einstein autographed baseball (they have sold a few of these in the past), Ed Cicotte signed bat, Jimmy Collins signed baseball, Chief Bender signed bat...
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  #118  
Old 02-07-2008, 09:36 AM
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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>And why are great dealers like Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson, Richard Simon (hope nobody minds that I added my name to the great dealers list <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ),Rich Albersheim, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran and Phil Marx staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was? <br />I would love to see CC come on this thread and answer some of these questions.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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  #119  
Old 02-07-2008, 09:47 AM
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Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>A few posts above, Corey had asked if people were willing to spend 1/10 hoping for a leap of faith. I would like to respond as a person who actually bought some items. I think it is actually a lack of information. I first stumbled across their auctions when I received a monthly flyer in the mail. Not being an autograph buyer, I just assumed that if they had a COA that were genuine. Luckily I found this forum and learned that this is not case. But that knowledge came a year to late and about $1,000 worth of bogus items. I learned an expensive but valuable lesson. I would also like to comment on Stat Authentic. I actually emailed both individuals (Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens, they both claimed that the items were authentic in their "opinion". That is how they get around things, they state that it is their opinion that the items are authentic. The one gentleman (the one that used to work at the Babe Ruth Museum) was very nice and was willing to try and help. He even was willing to look at the items I had purchased without COA's and check them for me. The other gemntleman was angry (not at me) but at everyone that bad mouthed CC or Stat and even talked about filing libel suits. Obviously will never happen. Just thought I would give you some insite on why some people may be buying items. They just may not know.
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  #120  
Old 02-07-2008, 10:34 AM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I can tell one thing about CC. When they have an item from Psa,Jsa and other top authenticators the item goes for more than three times the amount than a similar item authenticated by Morales or STAT. I do hope Morales and STAT have the balls to come on this site and tell us just how they authenticate there items.
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  #121  
Old 02-07-2008, 10:41 AM
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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Why don't we pitch in and place a full page ad in SCD touting the knowledge of this board? We don't even need to mention specific issues. People will be curious enough to check it out, and can read some of the threads for themselves.<br /><br />Maybe there is room on the home page for a small counter box for important threads that a new visitor could click on, such as this thread.<br /><br />It would be a small investment if we each kicked in 3 or 5 or 10 dollars each. The ad copy wouldn't take that long to write, and Leon could have final approval, assuming that he would want to do this at all (hi Leon). Nothing specific would need to be mentioned, just the general topics of discussion, free to join, monthly contests and prizes, already has major auction houses that contribute not just with ads, but with participation in the threads as well.<br /><br />If SCD rejected the ad, we know where they stand.<br /><br />If they accept it,, and just a few people came over and read about STAT, opinions on grading companies, etc., it could be enough to change the way some things are done. <br /><br />At the very least, maybe some of the new blood could add to the knowledge of this board, or maybe it will bring a collection of the woodwork. Who knows? At least it is a tangible action, with a low investment, that could produce some results.<br /><br />A lot of if's, but the outcome could tell us where the true collector really stands in this hobby/business, for a minimal investment. <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />
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  #122  
Old 02-07-2008, 10:47 AM
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards
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  #123  
Old 02-07-2008, 10:52 AM
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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I agree with Dan, that the majority of Coach's Corner Bidders are just uneducated and don't know a real autograph from a fake. They see these items featured in a major publication, and make the assumption that they must be authentic. They are "trusting souls" and simply believe what they WANT to believe. It is hard to envision so many people still falling into this category, but many just don't devote the time to educate themselves.<br /><br />But I believe there are 3 other contingents of bidders as well... <br /><br />A nominal percentage of these bidders probably think they are getting a "steal" and that they are turned on to this rather "obscure" auction house in which they can get much better deals than through the giant, overly publized Mastros, Lelands and REAs of the world. There is an assumption of exclusivity and a "greed factor" among this group.<br /><br />Collectors new to the hobby are more likely to bid in a CC Auction. They have not yet figured out that STAT is a sham. I have heard many stories from seasoned collectors, and how they got burned early in their collecting "careers". I think most of us have had similar learning experiences early-on.<br /><br />Finally, I know there are some who are purchasing these, knowing they are bad, and with the intention of re-selling them. These people have ways to peddle these pieces, and get big money in return. I recently took a trip to Las Vegas, and saw dozens of bogus pieces in a "Field of Dreams" type store on the strip. These autographs were nearly identical to the CC offerings, and were selling at HUGE prices. These may have even originated from Coach's Corner.... not even close to appearing authentic.<br /><br /><br />
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  #124  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:28 AM
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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Mark/Dan<br /> <br />What you say does make sense -- that the majority of purchasers are simply uneducated collectors who are unduly influenced by CC's advertising in a major hobby publication. These people I suppose believe no reputable major hobby publication would accept advertising from known unscrupulous auction houses. And that coupled with the LOAs lead them to believe not so much that they are getting a bargain but in fact that the selling prices reflect fair market value.<br /><br />So then a critical component to the "success" of CC's business model is (besides the LOAs) SCD advertising.
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  #125  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:54 AM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>My guess is that at this point there will not be responses from the mentioned companies. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't respond myself. They probably read this and think "This is obviously not my target market on net54" If they were in a forum of 50/50 supporters and non-supporters, I would guess a response would be necessary to keep the 50% of their clients. With a 0% client base here, not a chance. Maybe if they plead their case hard enough they would win over one, two bidders??? Doubtful. Same reason SCP didn't respond when called out on the panorama. Same reason Bushing didn't respond during the Joe D. streak bat. Same reason Memory Lane Inc. didn't respond many times. I could go on and on. All of the just named dealers probably are a little too smart to not pick their battles wisely.
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  #126  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:59 AM
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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Corey...<br /><br />That's absolutely correct! The SCD component is a huge part of this. The fact that prospective bidders see these pieces in what they believe to be a reputable publication serves to "validate" these items.<br /><br />There have been many previous threads (some on the Memorabilia side) suggesting that SCD drop Coach's Corner like a bad habit. SCD must really be in quandary, as Coach's Corner is their biggest advertiser. Coach's Corner and Mr. Mint generate most of the revenue that currently keeps SCD afloat. Pretty pathetic, and certainly not an enviable position to be in...
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  #127  
Old 02-07-2008, 12:07 PM
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>For the record Dave Bushing did respond to the Joe D Streak Bat controversy.
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  #128  
Old 02-07-2008, 01:49 PM
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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>"It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards"<br /><br />Leon mentioned a lawsuit in his post on this thread.<br />A lawsuit would open up all parties involved in the discovery process. All information about their business practices would be open to scrutiny.<br />Think they want to do that?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br /> <br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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  #129  
Old 02-07-2008, 04:21 PM
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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>What would you do if you bought an item from CC and STAT authenicated it ? I did this with a Beatles album signed by all four ? It also had 2 other LOA. First, are all their items fakes? What percentage, and what is this based on ?<br /><br />Should I :<br /> 1) Send back to Coaches and have them put up for auction again and get some money back on the deal ? Cover some loses. 2) Send to another service to see if it is real ( PSA, etc) ? Who would you send it to for the best expert "opinion" ? This would cost another few hundred dollars. 3) Keep it ,learn my lesson and impress my friends thinking it is real. I really need to know what to do with this item. Thanks Mike ( long time card collector, auto novice)and never again unless in person !
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  #130  
Old 02-07-2008, 04:29 PM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Great question Mike. I would like to hear board opinion if they sell any real autos or are all fake? If the Beatles album is certed by STAT, there is no chance PSA will cert it. Doesn't matter if its real or not. I have never heard of PSA certing a STAT item. I could be wrong but never seen or heard of this happening.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:29 PM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I can tell you right now. If you have had it more than 28 days they will refuse to take it back. I will also tell you if has been authenticated by STAT you can bet its not good. I am interested in who the other coa's are from. Don't waste your money getting them fully authenticated.If you want to do it on the cheap put the item up on Ebay and then get a quick opinion from psa for eight dollars.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:39 PM
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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>Mike-<br /><br />I bought a signed Beatles album from Forever L*****S, an e bay autograph dealer lady that used Morales and Frangiapiani for forensic expertise when I was green about rock and roll autographs, they had over 1000+ feedback, all positives.<br /><br />Every album I bought was deemed fake by Larry Rosenbloom, UACC, PSA/DNA and James Spence, since not one of these guys knew each other graded the item, all said they looked like forgeries, and all said they were fakes. I also sent it to Mastro who consulted Frank C., NJ, a well known autograph expert regarding Beatles memorabilia and he deemed it fake also. <br /><br />The chances of getting a REAL signed rare album from Coaches Corner with a "forensic expert COA endorsement" by C Morales or D. Frangiapanni is very small. You can send the item to Mastro auctions, if it is real, they can get you thousands for it, otherwise they will return it. It cost me a thousand dollars to get 4 different people, all "experts" and all said it was fake. Signed rock and roll memorabilia is 90% FAKE since most groups were too busy or stoned in the 60's and 70's to sign these items and there are so many coming out of California that look good but are not.
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:32 PM
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Posted By: <b>..</b><p>...
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:53 PM
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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>There are currently six complete signed Beatles items in CCSA's latest auction with one partial. <br /><br />Richard and Jodi. How many Josh Gibson autographs have you sold, seen or believe to exist?<br /><br />They have one every month...cuts, balls, bats, pants. I can't remember outside of the signed photo that was discovered and sold for $75K and a recent document, any other auction houses EVER selling one. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />Oh, in regards to "back to card speak", Coach's Corner has a 9.5 graded PRO Ty Cobb T206 with the following description:<br /><br />The PSA online guide shows NONE graded higher than an 8, and their price guide says the value is $45,000+ for one graded a Mint 9, and this beauty is GRADED HIGHER. My estimate on value is $100,000 or more, as this MUST be the HIGHEST GRADED card known to exist.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=78798" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=78798</a><br />
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:01 PM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>DJ<br />mastro sold a team ball with gibson. I was the consignor. It was new to the industry. A find in New York. Mid grade signatures. Sold right at 18,000 before the vig. I may be off a grand, it was 2-3 years ago.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:47 PM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Here is my favorite STAT piece for the evening.<a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=77830" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=77830</a><br />STAT please respond.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:21 PM
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Heroes of the Hobby!!!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Prohibited.aspx" target="_new">http://www.myccsa.com/Prohibited.aspx</a><br /><br />When will Stew P. Dasso be making an appearance on that list?
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:29 PM
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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>If Coach's Corner actually believed their own Anson ball (or Chesbro ball, etc.) was authentic, they would be fools not to buy it outright for twice the auction price and consign it to Mastro. They know exactly what they are doing.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:55 PM
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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>John,<br /><br />I remember a multi-signed ball for auction about that time. Was it single signed? I'm having trouble remembering this item and way too lazy to go throw a tower of catalogs. <br /><br />Why is that your favorite Shel? Those are a dime a dozen. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br /> <br /><br />
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:05 PM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>DJ, the reason I picked this one is that everyone can look at it and know just how bad it is. This is one of the worst forgeries I have ever seen. I just want STAT or Morales and CC to come on here and defend the garbage that they sell and authenticate. This one is so bad and the nice thing is that most of the players are alive and can testify to the fact the ball is garbage.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:21 AM
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Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>The grand total of the legitimate Josh Gibson autographs I have seen/sold is zero. <br />How lucky can one seller be to have a constant supply of them?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />Guess those private signing items from 1946 are finally starting to show up in the market <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:56 AM
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Posted By: <b>john</b><p>DJ-it was not a single. It was a team ball. Original owner all these years. <br /><br />Richard-You have never seen a real Gibson single or Gibson in any form?
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:24 AM
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Posted By: <b>Scott Mt. Joy</b><p>Ok so I have read thru this thread and being an autograph novice, the one thing that hits me is why has the FBI or anyone else not done anything? It seems like it would be pretty easy to prove these auctions are fake so why has it not happened?
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:26 AM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>By employing two Companies that don't know what there doing. SCD told CC that to advertise in there paper they must have certain items authenticated. CC corner will say to the FBI look I went out of our way to have these pieces authenticated as per SCD. The authenticators will tell the FBI it only our opinion and nothing but nothing can be done. Donald Farngiapni authenticated over 5 thousand items none of them where authentic.The FBI could do nothing because it was his opinion.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:31 AM
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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>REA in 2006 sold an autographed Josh Gibson postcard.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:35 AM
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Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Shelly - it seems that SCD, Coaches Corner & STAT all have<br />a bye based on your scenerio. So if all still thrive in <br />business it will slowly kill the autograph market.<br />Its becoming a joke in this industry.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:49 AM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>That is why I started this thread, in hopes that they would have the balls to come on here and defend their skills. This is a total scam and SCD knows it. Rocky quit the sports side of Krause just for that reason.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:01 AM
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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>This all seems a little too cozy to me -- the notion that Coaches Corner can shield themselves from criminal or civil actions by saying they are relying on LOAs from an authentication service. Certainly from the civil perspective, it seems to me that if they have marquee items that are so rare that as a practical matter they never come up for sale (outside CC auctions) routinely selling for five to ten cents on the dollar, that they are being put on notice that the market doesn't believe the signatures are genuine, thereby imposing a duty on CC to get a second opinion from a reputable authority. If they do not or if they do and the opinion comes in that the signatures are bogus, and CC sells then anyway then I would think they would be very vulnerable to an action for fraud. Yes they will play the stupidity defense -- "how were we to know, we only relied on the LOA" -- but I think the law would impute fraudulent intent under the reasonable person standard. A criminal action would be more difficult because here the stupidity defense can come into play, but even with that I think it possible they might have a hard time persuading a trier of fact that they are really that stupid.
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:54 AM
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not above helping if I can...Maybe we we need to see what a 1 page ad would cost in SCD? Could be interesting. If I ever were to collect autographs they would be on official documents only or with impeccable provenance that didn't require a leap of faith the size of the Grand Canyon.....best regards (I would also add this thread to our archives if need be)....regards
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:22 AM
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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Leon, I will bet you a dime to a dollar that SCD would turn down the add.
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