What is Carlos Beltran's rookie card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Harold Baines fares extremely poorly on Hall of Stats.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Harold Baines fares extremely poorly on Hall of Stats.

Baines: 2866 hits, 384 hr, 1299 r, 1628 rbi, 289/356/465 121 ops+
Beltran: 2725 hits, 435 hr, 1582 r, 1587 rbi, 279/350/485 119 ops+

Where does that leave Beltran?

[Copa7]

This was also the case with soccer Hall of Famer John Harkes (Sheffield Wednesday, DC United),

His picture is on the card, but it has Hall of Fame Tab Ramos (Sporting Gijon, MetroStars) name.

They come from the same town and it's both their rookie card!

If it had a slab flip, I'd insist they include both names.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Baines: 2866 hits, 384 hr, 1299 r, 1628 rbi, 289/356/465 121 ops+
Beltran: 2725 hits, 435 hr, 1582 r, 1587 rbi, 279/350/485 119 ops+

Where does that leave Beltran?

Beltran 134 points
Rankings by Hall Rating
108th All Time (Top 0.6%)
8th among Center Fielders

Baines 57 points
Rankings by Hall Rating
751st All Time (Top 3.9%)
221st among Hall of Famers
6th among Designated Hitters

[Mike D.]

Baines has 38.7 career WAR in a career that spanned 22 seasons.

Beltran had 69.6 career WAR in a career that spanned 20 seasons.

Their raw offensive #'s are close-ish as someone noted, but:

- Beltran was a 3x GG winning CF. Baines was a DH/mediocre OF.

- Beltran stole 300+ bases with less than 50 CS. Baines stole 34 career bases with a 50% success rate.

- 50 more HR is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Baines is the worst HOF selection in recent memory. Beltran isn't a slam-dunk, no doubt HOFer, but I think he's deserving.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Baines has 38.7 career WAR in a career that spanned 22 seasons.

Beltran had 69.6 career WAR in a career that spanned 20 seasons.

Their raw offensive #'s are close-ish as someone noted, but:

- Beltran was a 3x GG winning CF. Baines was a DH/mediocre OF.

- Beltran stole 300+ bases with less than 50 CS. Baines stole 34 career bases with a 50% success rate.

- 50 more HR is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Baines is the worst HOF selection in recent memory. Beltran isn't a slam-dunk, no doubt HOFer, but I think he's deserving.

Offensively, they are almost identical as shown in their ops+ with Baines having a slight edge. I found it an interesting comparison when he was described as having “ extremely poor” stats for HOF and Beltran seems like a lock. I do give credit to Beltran for his defense. But I don’t think 3 gg ever put a player over the top for induction.

Baines had 1 top 10 finish in the MVP voting. Beltran had 2. So neither one was dominating their leagues in the era they played. I don’t think you can make an argument for or against one and not the other. You can show me WAR and black ink to “prove” that one was superior to the other but they were very similar players - offensively.

Baines has become the poster boy for bad HOF inductees. My argument is only that he’s a pretty good pick, that he had a very nice career and is getting a bad rap. Put him in and Beltran too.

[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Offensively, they are almost identical as shown in their ops+ with Baines having a slight edge. I found it an interesting comparison when he was described as having “ extremely poor” stats for HOF and Beltran seems like a lock. I do give credit to Beltran for his defense. But I don’t think 3 gg ever put a player over the top for induction.

Baines had 1 top 10 finish in the MVP voting. Beltran had 2. So neither one was dominating their leagues in the era they played. I don’t think you can make an argument for or against one and not the other. You can show me WAR and black ink to “prove” that one was superior to the other but they were very similar players - offensively.

Baines has become the poster boy for bad HOF inductees. My argument is only that he’s a pretty good pick, that he had a very nice career and is getting a bad rap. Put him in and Beltran too.

Dwight Evans should be in before either of them.

20yrs
bWAR - 67.1
2446 Hits
385 HR
.272/.370/.470
127 OPS+
2 Top 5 MVP finishes
ALso finished 7, 9 and 11 in MVP voting in other years
9 GG (interestingly, BR gives his a career negative defensive WAR - this surprised me. Just looking at his D WAR, he was a mediocre to terrible defender after he turned 30)

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Dwight Evans should be in before either of them.

20yrs
bWAR - 67.1
2446 Hits
385 HR
.272/.370/.470
127 OPS+
2 Top 5 MVP finishes
ALso finished 7, 9 and 11 in MVP voting in other years
9 GG (interestingly, BR gives his a career negative defensive WAR - this surprised me. Just looking at his D WAR, he was a mediocre to terrible defender after he turned 30)

Now we’re talking. Good call.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Dwight Evans should be in before either of them.

20yrs
bWAR - 67.1
2446 Hits
385 HR
.272/.370/.470
127 OPS+
2 Top 5 MVP finishes
ALso finished 7, 9 and 11 in MVP voting in other years
9 GG (interestingly, BR gives his a career negative defensive WAR - this surprised me. Just looking at his D WAR, he was a mediocre to terrible defender after he turned 30)

Right in Fenway is pretty tough, not as bad as left, but not easy either.

After a few years, people stopped running on him, something that doesn't show in any stats I know of. So that might have something to do with a defensive dropoff. Not many chances for outfield assists if nobody tries to take an extra base.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Offensively, they are almost identical as shown in their ops+ with Baines having a slight edge. I found it an interesting comparison when he was described as having “ extremely poor” stats for HOF and Beltran seems like a lock. I do give credit to Beltran for his defense. But I don’t think 3 gg ever put a player over the top for induction.

Baines had 1 top 10 finish in the MVP voting. Beltran had 2. So neither one was dominating their leagues in the era they played. I don’t think you can make an argument for or against one and not the other. You can show me WAR and black ink to “prove” that one was superior to the other but they were very similar players - offensively.

Baines has become the poster boy for bad HOF inductees. My argument is only that he’s a pretty good pick, that he had a very nice career and is getting a bad rap. Put him in and Beltran too.

Agree that offensively similar, but defensively, it's not "3 gold gloves" that is the advantage, it's "20 years of good to great defense, compared to zero or negative defensive value for Baines".

And 300 steals is nothing to sniff at, either.

I look at it this way, if you're building a tower for each player based on their HOF qualifications, you give them both a similar sized "hitting" block.

The difference is that then Baines is done. All he did was hit. If you give Beltran a block for defense and a block for baserunning, his tower is substantially taller than Baines, even if the two additional blocks aren't as big.

In terms of WAR, I'd guess Baines and Beltran's offensive WAR (minus baserunning) is probably similar enough. Baines would have somewhat negative baserunning and defense. Meanwhile, Beltran would have positive baserunning and defense.

Now, whether either tower reaches HOF levels or not is another debate....but it's hard to argue that Beltran's isn't the better case.

[packs]

I really don't see it even being close between them. Beltran's 2006 season was better than any two of Baines'. And I mean that literally. Beltran put up an 8.2 WAR that year. The highest Baines ever put out was 4.3.