OMG Blowout list of suspected trimmed modern cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1300356

[sportscardtheory]

Shame on PSA and BGS for allowing fraudsters the means to commit such massive levels of fraud, while clearly giving them preferential grades on top of it. Not only are they grading altered cards, they are OVER-grading altered cards and giving preferential treatment to the people submitting them. Unreal. The grading game is dead to me, because absolutely no graded card from either of these shit companies can be trusted to be unaltered and graded properly and fairly.

[barrysloate]

There seems to be no boundaries to the scope of this scandal, and what is perfectly clear is TPG's simply do not have the ability to detect the alterations. The card doctors are light years ahead.

I've been in this hobby for thirty five years, and I've seen various levels of fraud pretty much the whole way through. But this dwarfs anything I have seen to date. I am very curious how this is all going to be addressed.

[calvindog]

Holy shit. If there are before and after pics for these cards, PSA and Beckett are in deep shit.

[perezfan]

They just need to go away forever. A new system (or no system) is needed.

STOP SUPPORTING THEM, PEOPLE!

And do not look to them to fix the problem. It would be like asking Lance Armstrong to fix the doping issue for the Olympics. Just be done.

[swarmee]

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise. There is a thread on Robert Block in the member feedback section if you want to see a lot of the before and after pictures.

[frankbmd]

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There are for a bunch. Then just like with Moser, they can put the submission back together and all cards submitted are considered tainted until proven otherwise.

I wish this were the case legally.

The modern stuff is going to dwarf the vintage losses.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

[calvindog]

Agreed. It’s certainly not for lack of trying lol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What I don't know is how these guys operate in terms of their submissions. Do they just submit stacks of altered cards, or do they try to throw the graders off the trail of the altered ones by mixing in clean ones, for example. Either way, it could end up a nightmare for people owning cards with certs in these subs but without the before and after pics. I imagine some will turn out to be obviously altered, but others may not be so obvious and some may even be legit.

Maybe some of the people here who profess such expertise in detecting alterations should offer their services.

[Buythatcard]

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

[sportscardtheory]

All I know is I will no longer be able to bring myself to make a large purchase of any PSA or BGS graded card/cards moving forward. Small stuff, whatever. I'll buy the card. But if you are talking anything over $50, no way in hell I'm risking spending my money on altered or over-graded cards.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

+1

I was kind of thinking the same thing, even though we know some aren't.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

All I know is I will no longer be able to bring myself to make a large purchase of any PSA or BGS graded card/cards moving forward. Small stuff, whatever. I'll buy the card. But if you are talking anything over $50, no way in hell I'm risking spending my money on altered or over-graded cards.

Same here... and if I do cave in/get stupid or just cannot find it raw (and buy something a bit more expensive), it is getting cracked out the second I take possession.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

There appear to be more altered cards than non altered cards out there. I think that we have to assume that every card is altered out there.

It's a horrible situation, but at the same time let's not overreact.

[Fballguy]

Thankfully, not one PSA 10 Greg Jefferies rookie on that list. Phew.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I’m sure that some of our members would not consider this evidence.

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

[Frank A]

Who in their right mind would continue to send cards in to be graded by either company. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg. What a mess is coming.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's just a list of cards and cert numbers. I did not see any evidence in that list. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community. It's just a shame guys on the internet have to uncover this information which is much more readily accessible to the TPGs and to PWCC.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would agree to an extent. With the exception of references to cards already identified as trimmed by clear photo evidence, it's a list of SUSPECTED cards. Merely appearing on the list is not proof a card was altered. Depending on your point of view, there could be a presumption, although at this point that would not get one over the more likely than not threshold in a lawsuit and so it's more of an opinion/personal judgment. At the very least, though, it's certainly a red flag that anyone with cards on the list should -- if they care -- take proactive measures to further assess those cards. In my opinion, very valuable information for the collecting community.

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread correctly many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

[calvindog]

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'd say this is the first time in a while we are in complete agreement. If I'm reading that thread completely many of the cards in question aren't even alleged to be altered, just bumped successfully at too high a rate to be considered legitimate. Well I certainly believe that's possible, and even likely, that alone is not proof.

If anything this shows how small the difference in the actual quality of the card between a 9, 9.5, 10, or black label is and how absurd the price difference is. A card in any one of those 4 holders would not look out of place in any other, most of the time.

I would be surprised if people hadn't figured out a way to exploit this. Way too much money at stake for a grader making whatever they make not to try to cash in.

I think if we had complete knowledge of these submissions we would see that many cards were altered, some were bumps (no comment at this point on any degree of corruption or favoritism), and some may be just regular cards thrown in to create the appearance of normalcy. The problem for the collector is how the hell do you figure out the story with YOUR cards. Beckett sure as hell isn't going to review them for you, and at this point who would trust them to do it anyhow?

Now some may be obvious when examined with a new and critical eye by the owner, but many may not be if this card doctor is as good as people say.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

The BGS 10 (how the bleep can a card or subgrade be better than gem mint) and the Black Label thing certainly create a huge potential for BS.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't know is how these guys operate in terms of their submissions. Do they just submit stacks of altered cards, or do they try to throw the graders off the trail of the altered ones by mixing in clean ones, for example. Either way, it could end up a nightmare for people owning cards with certs in these subs but without the before and after pics. I imagine some will turn out to be obviously altered, but others may not be so obvious and some may even be legit.

Maybe some of the people here who profess such expertise in detecting alterations should offer their services.

Time for another puff piece on PSA and PWCC to restore the public confidence and paint this as a matter of taste.

[oldjudge]

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn’t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn’t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Time for another puff piece on PSA and PWCC to restore the public confidence and paint this as a matter of taste.

Perhaps our resident Forbes writer will accommodate you.

[Fuddjcal]

It was only a matter of time until #2 was outed in the Brent Mastro scandal. First Gary "Scissorhands" Moser and now you can Add

Robert "FAT KID ON THE" Block to the list of trimmers conspiring with PWCC. There are at least 8 more "conservators" working with Brenty Mastro IMHO so please be patient, they're working on it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn’t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn’t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

It was only a matter of time until #2 was outed in the Brent Mastro scandal. First Gary "Scissorhands" Moser and now you can Add

Robert "FAT KID ON THE" Block to the list of trimmers conspiring with PWCC. There are at least 8 more "conservators" working with Brenty Mastro IMHO so please be patient, they're working on it...

I expect a similar list for at least a couple more, on the modern side.

[sportscardtheory]

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is how Joe Clemons has strange cards intertwined into his BGS submissions. He got a BGS Black Label on a 2018 Topps Chrome Mookie Betts common with rough edges. Some see the grade as part of the scandal, I see it as a marker for the grader to know which submissions are Joe's. 'Mine's the submission with the Mookie Betts common.' That's how they know which one's are his so they can give him bullshit grades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

One thing I have yet to see mentioned is how Joe Clemons has strange cards intertwined into his BGS submissions. He got a BGS Black Label on a 2018 Topps Chrome Mookie Betts common with rough edges. Some see the grade as part of the scandal, I see it as a marker for the grader to know which submissions are Joe's. 'Mine's the submission with the Mookie Betts common.' That's how they know which one's are his so they can give him bullshit grades.

At some point I just gave up on trying to follow the twists and turns of that thread, and now they are making charges against Brian Gray of Leaf as well.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Interesting that the only grading company which appears to have some evidence of crooked graders is Beckett.

that's for now. We know PSA has been crooked and have played favorites to their dealer network especially PWCC for YEARS & YEARS. Hopefully the proof will come out in our lifetime but it will definitely come out. The truth almost always wins out in the end. You know that.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

that's for now. We know PSA has been crooked and have played favorites to their dealer network especially PWCC for YEARS & YEARS. Hopefully the proof will come out in our lifetime but it will definitely come out. The truth almost always wins out in the end. You know that.

How do we “know” if the proof has yet to come out?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Thankfully, not one PSA 10 Greg Jefferies rookie on that list. Phew.

Probably in the bgs 10 black label Bo thread

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

I am highly skeptical cards above a 9.5 (or I should say with subs above a 9.5) would consistently regrade if resubmitted raw. Maybe it's not purely arbitrary (or corrupt) but hard to believe it's objective and reproducible. I can't even make sense of some of the subs on 9.5 and lower cards, particularly centering on some Star BKB.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

How do we “know” if the proof has yet to come out?

His opinion, thought we beyond questioning opinions

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't collect many modern cards but one I follow is the 89 ud Griffey. A card with 2 9.5 sub grades and 2 10s (gem mt vs pristine) is still a 9.5 worth around 500 bucks. Upgrade one of those 9.5s to a 10 and the card is now a 10, worth about 3500. 4 10s is a black label, and now the card is 10-20k probably, I'd have to look it up. I couldn't even tell you the difference in card characteristics of gem mt vs pristine, other than the obvious, almost perfect vs perfect.

So if you took a 9.5 Griffey and changed, say, an edge subgrade from a 9.5 to a 10 (seems completely arbitrary to me), that adds 3K value? SMH at that.

[sportscardtheory]

I have about 300 cards graded by PSA and BGS, but it's pretty obvious with this massive TPG scandal that the only way cards should be graded is with technology. There needs to be a system in place that if you ran a card through said system, the same said card would grade the same 100 times out of 100. Humans simply can not be trusted to be subjective and honest. Human-based TPGs should go the way of the Dodo bird. They're, inconsistent, unreliable, untrustworthy and not subjective.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why is anyone surprised by this? If a card is available in a 9 and the bump from a 9 to a 10 is many multiples I would be shocked if this didn’t happen. The idiots paying the multiples for a barely discernible change are fueling this. They are getting what they should expect. It doesn’t make it right, but it is none-the-less inevitable.

Imagine the idiot who paid 125K for a PSA 10 52T Mantle back in, when was it, late 90s?

[samosa4u]

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Perhaps something like...

Triple Dog GEM MINT with all Caps?

Double Secret GEM Mint?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if you took a 9.5 Griffey and changed, say, an edge subgrade from a 9.5 to a 10 (seems completely arbitrary to me), that adds 3K value? SMH at that.

Not every 9.5 has 2 9.5 and 2 10 subgrades. But yes on one that does that's all it would take. I'm sure it's been done many times before. Just like guys who buy 50 or 100 Henderson rookies in a 9 and send them in hoping 1 will bump I'm sure guys pick up a bunch of bgs 9.5 or PSA 10 89 griffeys and do the same. If one guy, or a group of collectors has someone on the inside awarding these bumps with or without merit it would essentially be as good as just printing money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Perhaps something like...

Triple Dog GEM MINT with all Caps?

Double Secret GEM Mint?

Dunno. But all kidding and TPG bashing aside, if people have cards on this list and the ones published before and the ones yet to come, don't play ostrich. There's at least a good chance they're altered considering the source. Above all, don't draw a false sense of security from the fact that BO guys have not found specific before and after pics, that doesn't mean much in this context.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I have about 300 cards graded by PSA and BGS, but it's pretty obvious with this massive TPG scandal that the only way cards should be graded is with technology. There needs to be a system in place that if you ran a card through said system, the same said card would grade the same 100 times out of 100. Humans simply can not be trusted to be subjective and honest. Human-based TPGs should go the way of the Dodo bird. They're, inconsistent, unreliable, untrustworthy and not subjective.

That's funny, other hobbies have authenticators/tpg that take their time to get it right, and catch very nearly everything, without technology.

To use technology, you need a few things. The first is the knowledge to tell the technology what to look for. None of the TPGs have that.
Next, you need the ability to look at edge quality to be able to see the difference between a factory edge and a non- factory edge. If nobody knows the difference, they can't tell the technology what's good and what's not.

Technology is probably currently easier to fool than a relatively knowledgeable person.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

His opinion, thought we beyond questioning opinions

I would not have questioned it if it was stated as an opinion. It was stated as a fact.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am highly skeptical cards above a 9.5 (or I should say with subs above a 9.5) would consistently regrade if resubmitted raw. Maybe it's not purely arbitrary (or corrupt) but hard to believe it's objective and reproducible. I can't even make sense of some of the subs on 9.5 and lower cards, particularly centering on some Star BKB.

Interesting idea for an experiment though, if someone was willing to risk a black label by cracking and submitting it several times.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Doctored!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Doctored!

haha