Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[pokerplyr80]

I am not convinced that any AH has refused to accept consignments from all known or suspected card doctors in the past. I assume they all have accepted them at one point or another. Perhaps they knew and perhaps they didn't. But in the end I don't think it matters. Ban one name and someone will find a way to submit under another.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I am not convinced that any AH has refused to accept consignments from all known or suspected card doctors in the past. I assume they all have accepted them at one point or another. Perhaps they knew and perhaps they didn't. But in the end I don't think it matters. Ban one name and someone will find a way to submit under another.

None of that has anything to do with your statement about direct evidence about PWCC. You're changing the topic.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of that has anything to do with your statement about direct evidence about PWCC. You're changing the topic.

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

I agree with you there, it will definitely be interesting and there are lots of aspects to it. And there is no question there are many culpable parties in this mess, but in my opinion that doesn't excuse a specific culpable party.

[Chris Counts]

I never bought from these guys before because they're winning bids were so high, and there was a lot of talk about shilling. But now, with all the negative publicity certain to scare off at least some of their customers, I'm looking at their auctions and trying to find some low grade or undergraded bargains.

[pokerplyr80]

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

Many of these cards that were outed simply had something removed from the card. If the card doctors are skilled enough to remove a stain with no trace, what is there to detect? These cards shouldn't be in the conversation at all. Unless you have a problem with those doing the altering.

Cards that were trimmed, recolored, or rebuilt (corners) are the issue. How was this not detected? Especially on modern cards that should all measure 2.5 by 3.5. These are the cases were it seems clear fraud was committed. And someone at the grading company has either been paid off or they're just incompetent. These cards shouldn't just slip through the cracks. But again, once they're graded how is the auction house supposed to know? They don't spend hours looking through every similar card sold previously. They don't have the benefit of before and after scans.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

[frankbmd]

The bank officer is held up at gunpoint and tells the gunman, “Go ahead and shoot. If you don’t kill me, the next bank robber will. I have no evidence that either gun isn’t loaded.”

[Dpeck100]

I answered yes I would keep buying in their auctions.

PWCC is just an EBAY auction house to me. They have consistently gotten the best cards and if the cards leave them I will go there. I have had nothing but very positive dealings with them and while I mindful of what is happening around me I have no interest in blocking myself from the market.