Just when you thought it was safe...

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Posted By: MW 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1986182046&category=31718


<< WHILE THE STOCK MARKET IS GOING DOWN, HOW MANY UNOPNED PACKS OF SWEET CAPORAL CIGARETTES THAT ARE AUTHENTIC ACTUALLY EXIST. >>


While the price of a public education is going up, how many remarkably unenlightened eBay "unopened pack" descriptions actually exist?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Any conjecture about what's inside the pack can go on in as many heads as want to busy themselves with it.

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Posted By: MW

<< Item is exactly as described >>


Really?

I was having a slight problem with the frequent appearance of the words "Honus Wagner" and "T206" as well as the date "1909-11" on the GAI label. How can this be if it is a Sweet Caporal pack and there is no T206 factory designation specified? Are we to assume that either the grading company or the seller (or perhaps both) are psychic?

GAI has recently graded at least two of these conveniently labeled "T206 era" cigarette packs. This is the latter of the two (serial numbers 10043898 & 10037732). It is good to see that GAI expertise is reaching a new pinnacle of vintage ephemeral excellence.

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Posted By: Hankron

As I don't know what is the factory designation on the pack I can't comment on the T206-rightousness of the pack. This is something the potential bidder would want to inquire about before bidding.

The 1909 stamp is significant. While a tax stamp by itself (with out overprinting) cannot date a pack to a particular year, such a stamp would have appeared on many genuine T206 packs.

As Michael correctly noted, the 1909-11 designation GAI uses is a fiction. The designation is not a logical fit with what is known about the packs. A better dating would be, for example, 'circa 1909'-- translating to 'somewhere around 1909' or '1909 or there abouts.'

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Posted By: RC_McKenzie

Was Wagner's card ever distributed in a pack? I thought he got an attorney to stop the presses?? Whatever is in there, I doubt it's "Gem Mint"

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Posted By: Hankron

When was the shoehorn invented?

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Posted By: Hankron

Naturally, I was making a joke. A shoehorn would totally wreck a cigarette pack.

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Posted By: Hankron

To be serious for the moment: my guess (repeat: guess) is that the Wagners with Piedmont backs were not distributed in packs (the discussed pack on eBay is a Sweet Caporal so it's not relevent to that). I don't know whether or not some or all of the Wagners with Sweet Caporal back were sold in packs. I'm sure one of the many T206ophiles on board can provide a more definitive answer.

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Posted By: Dwayne

Five maby six Wagners inserted in each pack in 1909...the odds are in your favor

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Posted By: MW

Upon visiting GAI's Global Pack Authentication Website (www.gapack.net), one immediately encounters the following rhetoric:

"Global Authentication is quickly becoming the leader in all segments of grading and authentication."

"We have hired the nation's top names to authenticate all of your unopened material."

"Mark Murphy is a [sic] our Head Pack Authenticator. Along with his team of experienced pack experts, we guarantee the accuracy of our Pack Grading and Authentication service."


I'll tell you what. We sure are fortunate that GAI has already hired the nation's TOP NAMES to accurately grade and authenticate...not to mention properly LABEL each holder, because I'd sure hate to see what sort of scheme a bunch of hobby doofuses would come up with. And it's simply wonderful that Mark Murphy has a crack team of "experienced pack experts" at his disposal or who knows what little-studied loquacity would end up on GAI's splendiferous slabs.

Don't get me wrong -- there's no doubt that the proper grading and authentication of a vintage item adds a degree of value to many types of collectibles, but what good does it do to PURPOSELY mislabel a holder in order to DELIBERATELY create a mistaken perception? Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless GAI is chronicling the career of Dots Miller while he played second base for Pittsburgh (1909-11) or Cy Young while he was with the Cleveland Indians (also 1909-11), how did they (GAI) come up with this distinctive 3-year span? I'll tell you how. They made a totally arbitrary (random) guess that a T206 was inside of the unopened cigarette pack and then turned to page 492 of the 2003 Standard Catalog for further reference.

It is with great humility, then, that I must reluctantly admit the following -- GAI encapsulation really DOES "augment" the value of some collectibles.

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Posted By: Hankron

I'm not going to grab a pitchfork and join the mob against GAI (I always root for Bela Lugosi, anyway), as I have absolutely no in-person experience with any of their products or services. If they fix or change for the future their labeling of packs, that's enough for me .... And Michael's last line was funny.

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Posted By: Hankron

I correct myself, as I have had personal experience with GAI. I've bought autographs examined by GAI's Mike Gutierrez. Gutierrez' reputation follows him no matter where he works. Obviously, this isn't directly related to cards or packs, but felt it only fair to give due credit.

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Posted By: Brian

Hi MW
I would feel much better about GAI grading packs if they would grade the 1910 stamp correctly as 1909-1917. They appear to blindly label anything with a 1909 or 1910 stamp as a "1909-1911 T206 pack", no matter what the factory code or designation. There "experts" are obviously not qualified to authenticate Tobacco packs if they lack the basic knowledge that can be found by any novice on the web. If Gai really wants to hire experts in the field, I can give them a few names. be well brian

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Posted By: hankron

Brian is correct that the info is available on the web. The tax stamp chart was used in my newsletter at least twice, and has been posted on my website for over a year. This isn't meant as a boast, because I didn't create the chart. I reprinted it with permission of the author (interestignly, an anti-smoking advocate who created the chart during his research), who had it on his website for at least an additional couple of years. Additionally, I've gleened additional essential tax stamp information from others, including Henry Moses and Leon and it was even discussed on the fullcountboard. In otherwords, the info is available to those who look or ask.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

....

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Posted By: Hankron

Julie, I don't think you have anything to be embarassed about. The only one who should feel foolish is GAI. I don't fault the ordinary seller or bidder either, as it is reasonable for him to assume a prominant grader is providing accurate information.

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Posted By: Eric

I agree that the grading of this cigarette pack is misleading. As was mentioned, the 1909 tax stamp was issued between 1909 and 1917. Unless there is an overprinted date on the stamp, there's no way to tell when the pack was manufactured. I have empty Mecca and Hassan cigarette packs with the 1909 tax stamp but both stamps have overprinted dates. One pack has an overprinted date of April, 1911 while the other pack has an overprinted date of December, 1911. I also have a Nebo pack with all the cigarettes and redemption coupon still inside. This pack also has a 1909 tax stamp on it but an overprinted date of 1917 on the stamp.
Hell, let's end the mystery surrounding the contents of the pack on ebay. One of you guys buy it, break it open and we'll all have a smoke!

Eric