Paper Policeman, Help!

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Posted By: Janet

I just sent 4 Vintage Base-ball guides and 1 book into a grading company called NASA to get graded should I have sent them to AAA Grading instead? You seem to be giving them alot of attention. Are you their competition? (NASA)or do you guys work for the companys you promote on this board? I notice your a pretty angry guy. Any suggestions

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Posted By: Brian Daniels

WE combined all all one angry guy!

"Janet"

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Posted By: runscott

From the following auction for a "ORIGINAL 1932 LOU GEHRIG PSA 10 baseball card" from your very honest leader, Roy Huff, you can tell that he considers the "TOUGH NASA" to be a great choice.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16277&item=1984810922

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Posted By: rod

Although I could care less aabout AAA,NASA, PSA ad naueum ,as an "outsider" here, I've noticed a good deal of arrogance on your board in some areas. The value of vintage paper items , like anyything else, is in the eye of the beholder.If somene wants to collect pages ripped out of a book,where is the harm in that?What is the real difference between that and your small pieces of old cardboard.These pages usually come from items in such bad condition that nobody would want them anyway. Nobody wants to get ripped off on cards or anything else , but if most of your collecting time is spent in a grading paranoia, your truly missing something here. Adios.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

isn't collecting paper cut-outs as I see it, it's posting these under the "trading cards" section.

Someone with less knowledge than yourself may just think they're getting themselves a legitimate card....when in reality, they're getting a cut up piece of paper that's worthless in the "trading card" hobby. Now, you may be thinking "it clearly states in the description that it is a paper cut-out", and to that I would then ask you to read the first sentence of this post again. Surf's up!

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Posted By: ty_cobb

My take is
A) Newspaper cutouts have no place in the
pre-1930s baseball card category of eBay.
They should be advertised in another category.
B) Reach or Spalding baseball guide cutouts
are just that, trimmed items. It is my opinion
that to grade a trimmed cutout item as Near mint
or better is wishful thinking.
C) It is a shame to destroy said publications to
make paper cutouts. It is a waste to destroy 90
year old publications to make scraps simply for
profit motives. I have to question why the hobby
really needs slabbed cutout paper scraps which I
do see as distinctly different from an actual card.

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Posted By: John

The tough NASA has a tough time spelling as well (Gherig). I can see how that could happen it wasn’t like they had his name right in front of them, oh wait they did. Well when you get the “card” you can always print up a new label with your Baby Label Maker Jr. Why not give it a 10 while your at it all you need is some scissors and a steady hand.

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Posted By: Hankron

Rod, your point is valid that collecting is in the eye of the beholder. If someone enjoys collecting pictures cut out of a magazine, that's great. It's a hobby and it should be about collecting what the individual wants to collect, whether or not the material is in vogue.

The significant issue with the paper cutouts is how they are represented by the seller. If the seller said, "This is a picture that I just cutout out from page 10 of a Reach guide I have. Go see my other eBay auction to see the picture I cut out of page 27"-- not only would there not be a problem with the description, but he would they would probably have never sold for $500 or $900 like they used to. The problem is that he words and frames these pictures he cut out of his magazine deceptively-- so as to artificially raise the price.

There is nothing wrong with selling cutout pictures or cleanex or baseball cards-- AS LONG as the seller descrives the accurately and sincerely. Meaning without any deception or insincerity so as to artificially raise the price a substantial amount. Just as the bidder has the right to collect whatever she wants, she also has the right to be informed on exacty what she is bidding.

If your point was that the overpayers for these items are dumb and blindly see a holder and think it's gold-- I agree with you.

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Posted By: runscott

but Rod, like MikeW and the others, simply ignore the facts and try to act "picked on" when we point it out. This is a board for discussion of vintage cards, so, yes, we are perfectly within our rights and the parameters of this board's goals to point out crap that paper cut-out sellers are trying to disguise as "vintage cards". Are we arrogant because we refuse to recognize your paper cut-outs as part of the "vintage card hobby"? Maybe, but tough - if you really had something of value, it would become a hobby in and of itself and you could PROUDLY create your own board and discuss the hell out of it with your buddies from Hawaii, but oddly, I don't see that happening.

When something is sold in the "cards" section and labeled "1916 Spalding #3 Honus Wagner", and it is actually a photo of a team or several players and there happens to be a '3' written on Wagner's image, and there is no mention of the actual title of the publication (eg: "Spalding Baseball Guide" or "Spalding Record Book" or "Spalding's How to Catch",etc,etc.), and also no mention of the page number it was cut from....this is deception pure and simple. A more appropriate title would be "1916 Spalding Baseball Guide, cut from pg 316, featuring Wagner". Yeah, right, that's going to happen.

Rod, MikeW, Roy Huff, etc., regardless of how they disguise the facts, are deceiving in order to rip people off.

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Posted By: hankron

A common but misguided point of argument used in these types of issues is to say something like, "a picture cutout is on a piece of paper and your expensive baseball card is on a piece of cardboard. So what's the big difference?"

I hate to break the news, but a $10,000 bill is merely an engraving on a piece of paper (and often wrinkly paper to boot). A genuine T206 Honus Wagner and a reprint are both on cardboard. A Babe Ruth geunion autograph and forged autograph can both be on similar types of paper. In other words, the legitimate value of an item cannot be isolated to the paper or ink. And, if you don't feel that point is legitimate, I will happily exchange some pieces of paper in my kitchen drawer for some of those elongated green pieces of paper in your wallet-- after all, they're all printed on paper so what's the big difference?

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...are little figments of Roy's (and Company) imaginations. If you go back and read their posts, they are just whining (without merit) about "why are those of us on the board mean and picking on AAA, and NASA, and so forth..."

Notice that "Rod" has no e-mail address. Notice that Janet's e-mail is Janet101@aol.com. We'll when I log directly into AOL and search for userID "Janet101", there is no profile for Janet101. <SHOCK!!>

This isn't the first time this has happened. Roy et al engaged Board Members before in the past with a fake name/profile doing just this...saying "Roy" had the right to do this and that, and we were all arrogant for saying this and that...blah blah blah. They're even using some of the same phrases and arguments as before...

Roy and Company are fakes. They're rip offs. "Rod" and "Janet" are either associates of some sort or they are just other nomenclatures for the same people. Either way, they blow. How silly...just like the rubbish that Roy and AAA crank out...

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Posted By: MW

And don't forget that many of the world's greatest artistic masterpieces are "just paint and canvas."

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If the members of this board seem arrogant to uninformed lurkers, it is only because of the depth of knowledge they possess regarding vintage cards, the degree to which they value their hobby, and the corresponding degree of disgust they feel when charlatans and hustlers masquerading as card dealers prey on the lack of knowledge of the general buying public in the name of that hobby. Every one of the worthless paper cut outs that Roy and his crew are creating by hacking up books has the potential of driving a new collector away from vintage card collecting or disappointing a gift recipient. These cut outs have no market value apart from the initial payment made to acquire them and rely solely on the ignorance of the initial purchaser. Is it fraudulent to list these cut outs on ebay? Probably not given the current subtleties in the descriptions used. However, the more important, and subtle, point that you gloss over is that the paper cut outs in question are being listed in the pre-1930 graded baseball trading card category. While the items in question may be pre-1930 and graded, they are emphatically not baseball trading cards. They were never issued as baseball cards or issued with the intent of being cut up to make cards (as were the strip cards), they are not recognized by any of the standard trade catalogues or institutions as cards, and simply they do not belong in the baseball card listings. That they are repeatedly placed there despite the complaints of the members of this board and many others shows the fraudulent intent of the listers, who undoubtedly hope to suggest to the more gullible members of the public that the cut outs are cards. The fact that a close, careful reading of the listing lets the reader know that the items are not cards does not make up for the intentional misclassification of the items in the first place. They are a con and anyone who defends the placement of them into the vintage card listings is either oblivious to fact or is an apologist for the charlatans.

The little pieces of paper we all collect have a 100+ year history and a collecting tradition that goes back 70 years, with established norms, markets and definitions, just like numismatics or philately, as anyone with any degree of experience in the hobby well knows. As far as this "Card Twit" goes, I suggest that you establish your credibility and your bona fides in the hobby before attacking the motives of the people on this board; as was once said, it is better for people to suspect you are ignorant than for you to open your mouth and remove all doubts.

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Posted By: Roylian Occulti

Seems a better definition for these people you speak of would be "Nonconformists" rather than Nomenclators. Is'nt collecting card cards some sort of occult/religion to you guys. If you dont have anything better to do You should write the Baseball Vintage Trading Bible. So anyone that does'nt agree with you or believe your prophecy will suffer your rath of knowledge and big words. (LOL)

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Posted By: runscott

and I don't want to risk offending anyone, but are all of you AAA'ers mildly retarded? Do you know what the word 'nomenclature' means? (it's not an obscure word). If English is your language, you should work at it a bit more - perhaps pick up a cheap paperback dictionary for those multi-syllabic words that seem to give you so much trouble.

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Posted By: hankron

For the record, I don't collect trading cards.

It is also apparent to me that Huff is posting here because his market/prices are slowly going down the drain. When he was selling 'Joe Jackson Pre-Rookies' for $900, I don't remember him posting here once.

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Posted By: hankron

I tend to feel sorry for people like Roy Huff and Koos. I can't imaging that people who willingly choose to cheat uninformed people out of money are happy and well-adjusted. Personally, I'd rather be poor and able to live with myself. Huff may look at himself as a champion of 'America: the New World', but to me he's a poor man's Kenny Goldin.

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Posted By: jay behrens

the proper term is polysylabic

Jay

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Posted By: jeff s

polysyllabic has two "l's."

Just for the record . (But I'm not going to call you a tard.)

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Posted By: rod48

Just for the record- I suppose I am an "uninformed lurker", whatever that is. But I have to make clear that I have no connection to AAA, liberty for all,or Huff. And I've never been to Hawai. My point was that over the short period of time I ve been reading your posts, I've noticed kind of a sour attitude regarding those who don't necessarily have a doctorate of vintage cards. Really though , don,t you think you'd have to be preety much a moron to mistake a page from a book for a vintage card, even if the seller did list it in a card category ? The reason I read your posts is that I like vintage cards. I buy them. Some of them are little works of art to my eye. A lot are crap.But to me they're fun albeit a little pricey at times.

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Posted By: rod48

My email address is rod48@webtv.com .But please don't mail me a lot of irrelevant garbage that we all get flooded with. Thank you

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Posted By: jay behrens

works for me

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

the people who buy these cut-outs thinking they are as valuable as baseball cards are morons; however, it doesn't make it right to try and rip them off through deception. This is the point we've been trying to make that you and the AAA'ers are avoiding completely. You seem to think that deception is fine, in fact, that anything a seller can get away with is perfectly fair - buyer beware. If all sellers of all products had the "AAA attitude", we'd all be screwed (even you). Just my thoughts - I realize that you disagree. Oh, and...I'll repeat myself... if you have such a problem with this board, why do you hang around? Seriously - you guys should start your own board and rip us morons who collect baseball cards.

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Posted By: Elliot

Hey Scott, Rod has every right to post here, whether he agrees with us or not. He has identified himself and has not been abusive. I do believe that he is misguided in his thinking.

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Posted By: runscott

I can't find anything remotely saying "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO POST". But this is nothing new.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

square, diamond-shaped, round, etc. cut-outs from old magazines are being encapsulated by AAA, and that people, morons or whatever they are, are spending bucks on them, and ANy bucks is too big. It's just a damned shame, that's all, that people are getting ripped off like that.

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Posted By: rod48

O.K. I'm gone, but I never said I wasn't interested in cards.You missed my point.Actually you proved my point at the same time.Go to the vintage paper items on Ebay.What is the real difference between that stuff and the stuff we collect?

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Posted By: runscott

What is the difference between a card included in a package of tobacco or gum, and a picture that is part of a book !?! Duh, gee, I guess they are the same.

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Posted By: Hankron

What's the difference between a T206 Ty Cobb and a T206 common? About $1,000.

Rod, I understand your point. I deal primarily with photographs and ephemera, and not with trading cards-- so I am aware of the conceits of trading card collectors (all other qualities even, a baseball card will always be valued much higher than a booklet). I am also aware of the value (non finacial) of non-card items. I own photographs that I think are the cat's meow, that wouldn't sell for $7 each on eBay. I am well aware of areas that I think are 'undervalued' (common collector's euphamism for, 'Doesn't sell for as high as I want.')-- but, as we all know, sometimes the best things in life are free.

While it is fine for an individual to say a scrap of paper is just as nice as a early baseball card, he can't pretend that they are of the same value. Fair or unfair, just or unjust, the value is set by the informed (I repeat: informed, not deceived) buying public. Even within trading cards or scraps of paper or brouchures, there will be a wide variation in value. Even within a single set, 1963 Topps or 1990 Donruss, there is an incredible variation in prices.

Rod, I don't even beleive even you buy your own arguemts. I am certain that you don't pay the same exact price for trading cards or other paper/cardboard items. I would be suprised if you would pay the same amount for a Ty Cobb picture cut out of a magazine and a T206 Ty Cobb Portrait with Red Back. I would be surpised if you would pay the same amount 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle as you would for a 63 Topps Sal Maglie. You may argue, as you have here, that there's no difference technically in the items, but I highly doubt that you're forking out $500 for Sal Maglie cards. If you are are, please send me copies of your receipts and I will appologize on this board (then offer you so Sal Maglies I have).

If your argument is that collecting is partially irrational-- you are 100% correct. Collecting is a hobby is a game is supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be doing the taxes or math homework. It's about having fun and collecting what you like and want to hang on your wall. It's about having favorite teams and players and like card with blue backgrounds instead of green because blue is your favorite color. You put a painting up on your wall becaues it look nice, not because of a mathamatical equation. If collecting was entirely rational, it would be no fun and no one would do it.

So, in short, if you yourself place wildly different prices on different pieces of cardboard, I don't understandy why you complaining about others placing placing different values of different pieces of cardboard.

"Duty is what one applies to others, not oneself."
-- Oscar Wilde

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Posted By: Rod

Here's my test for. Give sincere (if approximate) answers.

How much would you pay for each these items? (all grade Near Mint)

1) 1909 T206 Honus Wagner
2) Play Ball Honus Wagner
3) 1976 Topps Honus Wagner
4) 1910 Reach Guide with picture of Honus Wagner in it
5) The above picture of Wagner cut out of the Reach Guide
6) Wagner picture cut ouf of 2002 Beckett magazine
Computer printout of online picture of Wagner

After you give (to yourself is okay) honest answers about what you would pay, and what you would advise a non-collecting good friend to pay for these itesm if offered on line-- I don't want to hear anymore about how the hobby is a bunch of elitiest snobs, because they think #1 is more expensive than #2 or #3 should be more expensive than #6. At the least, you just prove that you are as much of an elist snob as everyone else in the world.

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Posted By: hankron

Whoops, that above 'Rod' post is mine. I meant to put his name in the message title.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

The people on this board discuss the issues about AAA and others of that ilk because they do one thing: they obfuscate the truth about what they are selling for a profit. That's it.

They lure people to their POS items by listing them under "graded cards" categories when they are not "cards". They are pictures cut out of old encyclopedias, magazines, etc.

The first Matty I bought on eBay (a LONG time ago) was a 19-something "Spalding" whatever slabbed by NASA. I thought "wow" I can't even find it listed, it must really be rare...I didn't know, I was a bit of a newbie, and I had only (at that time) owned a few cards beginning with a Matty T206 Portrait that my uncle gave to me about 25 years ago. I wasn't stupid, just inexperienced, and I screwed up. At least it only cost me about $10. So, it wasn't some cathartic rip-off that would embitter me to the trade...but, when people get sucked into one of Huff's misrepresented POS's and they Buy-It-Now for $500 or $995, it might be a different story - when they find out later that what they bought was totally worthless. It hurts us and the trade.

On top of all that, Huff and Co. are destroying old periodicals that, in totality, do have some value. But, when they are cut-up and destroyed, they are worthless and a piece of collecting history has been destroyed just so some a-hole could misrepresent a product and rip someone off.

Quite honestly, this whole thread was started and propegated by those JOKES, Roy and Co. Look at that latest poster, Roylian Occulti (talking about us being an occult/religion because we collect cards.)

(Roy)lian (Occult)i... give me a break. Again, this is not the first time Roy and Co. have posted here to stir things up.

I think this board and the discussions herein are very much worthwhile for new people, Rod. There is no reason to leave because of an occasional disagreement, because that will happen. I've had occasional leaves of absence from here, but that was because there was a "poster" who really got personal with me and others and, honestly, out-and-out foul and offensive with a lot of what he said. I and others often disagree on many issues here, from card values, grading companies, and so forth. But, that's part of the fun here - to get the collectors' different points of view.

Regarding Roylian Occulti's ridiculous posting above...where he suggests this: "If you dont have anything better to do You should write the Baseball Vintage Trading Bible."

Well, Roylian: Bob Lemke does post here often, and he does work to produce the SCD Baseball Card Catalog "Bible" that many of us use daily. He even asks the Board for input in what cards to use on his cover...and we have dialogues with him when issues come up with pricing or listing information in the book. So, we're already WAY AHEAD OF YOU "Roylian"...

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I've got to admit that I'm alot less disturbed by those selling slabbed cutouts than some other members of the board. When I was a kid I cut out pictures from magazines and newspapers and glued them into scrapbooks. I did this because I liked the pictures and didn't want to save the publication. I view these slabbed pictures as kind of the same thing. Obviously, the grade assigned on the slab means nothing. It is simply a vintage picture protected in a plastic holder. I almost bid the minimum on a Keeler cutout the other day. I would have bid if it was a nice single picture but it was a group of 6 or 8 player pictures.
Are the ebay listings purposely misleading---probably. Are these the first misleading listings that I have seen on ebay---definately not. I see misrepresentations on vintage card listings on a regular basis. There are plenty of lawyers on the board. If you think these guys are commiting fraud why not report them to the proper authorities. If not, I suggest you save your breath with them. You argueing will not convince them they are doing something wrong, only the marketplace will do that. Actually, if the market for this stuff goes away these guys may have to find an alternate source of income. Given their predisposition for misleading people and ripping off society in general I can think of only one appropriate profession for them----lawyers.

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Posted By: Neal

Finally! Someone with half a brain speaks!

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Posted By: runscott

I feel certain Jay has at least 3/4 of a brain.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...but:

>>>Are the ebay listings purposely misleading---probably.<<<

I would say they Definitely are purposely misleading.

>>>Are these the first misleading listings that I have seen on ebay---definately not. I see misrepresentations on vintage card listings on a regular basis. There are plenty of lawyers on the board. If you think these guys are commiting fraud why not report them to the proper authorities. If not, I suggest you save your breath with them. You argueing will not convince them they are doing something wrong...<<<

This, though, is the point. I don't think anyone here ever had the intent (or hope) to CHANGE what Roy does by hoping that Idiot/Thief might see what we write here. We talk about it here because we can't report his misrepresentation as a crime... If it isn't directly fraud (and, incidentally, what he does IS an eBay violation but they also will not do anything about it) we can only talk about it here and hope that the new folks who do see our board will read what we discuss abotu Roy (and about other stuff) so that they won't be ripped off. I wish I had always had this Board to read from and interact with from Day 1 when I started collecting... We can't change Roy, but we can keep some of our friends, new and old, from getting shafted by him.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Since some people apparently have difficulty using big words, let's see if I can put this like Tonto or Tarzan would, so you can follow along at home:

"Paper cut outs not cards. Paper cut outs memorabilia. Paper cut outs not belong in card listings. Paper cut out sellers who list them in card listings bad. People who defend those listings wrong. People who buy paper cut outs for huge BIN numbers very stupid. People who sell worthless paper scraps to very stupid people very bad. Very bad people will go to hell when they die."

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Posted By: runscott

We would be living in a sad state indeed if any time we saw something fraudulent going on we only had the choices of reporting the problem to the authorities or doing nothing. Anyone who relies totally on the legal system to instigate change in society is living in a dream world - in many cases it is the legal system itself that requires the change.

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: Hankron

All I ask, and what I expect, of all sellers who are knowledgeable about what they are offering for sale, is that they describe the item accurately. If it's a trading card describe it as a trading card, if it's a newspaper picture describe it as a newspaper picture, if it's a T206 reprint describe it as a T206 reprint.

You may legitimately claim that a picture cutout is the same as a trading card, but IT IS UP TO THE INFORMED BIDDER TO DESCIDE WHAT ESSENTIAL FACTS ARE IMPORTANT BEFORE BIDDING. It is NOT THE SELLER'S RIGHT OR PRIVLEDGE TO MISLEAD so as to raise the sell price. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING MONEY'S REAR IF LOTS OF OTHERS ARE DOING IT. I don't accept that kind of lame excuse from a six year old, much less adults.

In all cases, the seller has a right to know what he or she is bidding on.

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Posted By: RBCraik

I believe that particular quote is attributable to Abraham Lincoln who said "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." See ya' at HP in Feb!