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  #21  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:52 PM
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I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-24-2018 at 03:53 PM.
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2018, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
The thing that strikes me about your post, Al, besides the good analysis, is that all of the countries listed except Brazil were stable, Western, first-world democracies at the time of issue of these cards and have basically remained that way since. Brazil was a developing country with substantial political instability over the decades. Big populace but poor. Perhaps that difference has something to do with it.
Big populace, but poor. Absolutely the case. However, you have seen these cards? They are slightly more than paper and must have been extremely cheap to make.. why? Because even the poor could afford them. That is my hypothesis. I am not 100% sure, but that is my thought. Still whatever the numbers, they will pale in comparison to the number of 1950's Topps baseball cards... I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low. Significantly more scarce than I have expected prior to researching the population reports.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2018, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
Both the Sicker-Verlag and Palirex are his rookies. They came out 67/68.
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
$5,000 USD for a Pele card in 2015 was crazy money and 99.99% of collectors would never have done this.

]The answer is PSA[/b]. When collectors started seeing these Pele cards in PSA holders, they went bonkers. Do you think those Pele cards on Heritage would have brought in those prices if they had been in SGC holders? Definitely not. Collectors want PSA.

Now the thing that bothers me is that PSA has been closing the door on some of these popular soccer sets. For example, they no longer grade the 1958 Titulares set, and this is very bad. This set has the true rookies of Pele, because it was issued before the Quigols. I've tried to get PSA to reverse their decesion on the Titulares cards, and they have been very polite with me, but so far their answer remains a "no." They are also no longer grading the 1947 Nannina cards, and this set has the Ferenc Puskás rookie. This is another blow for soccer cards.

The question we should be asking here is this: what will PSA do next? What if they decide to stop grading the Quigols? Remember, the #109 Pele has been driving the vintage soccer card market, and if the company shuts the door on this set, then we are in BIG trouble!

That's my take on this whole thing
Very good points... and I agree on almost all fronts. I venture to say that I am one of the largest soccer card collectors in the USA and have graded nearly exclusively with SGC as I prefer the holder and the people.

While I admit that I am primarily a collector and do not plan to sell anytime soon, when you are buying things you should always think about the exit and therefore, I am also an investor (and especially in what I deem "golden" cards - rookies of the top cards where I have many copies in various grades).

When I sell my dupes on eBay, I frequently get questions on why they are not PSA graded... this leads me to believe that you are correct that the market generally wants PSA versus SGC or others.

I have roughly 1,000 cards that I am thinking of submitting to PSA just to see how it goes. It may be good for the hobby to get a few Cruyff Palirex rookies in PSA holders (right now there is just one) and some other key rookies so that at least some of these cards are "out there". I do that that PSA will likely want to be long on the soccer trade as it is a growing market and should bring more international business, however, so let's see.

Frankly, while I love the guys at SGC, it has been extremely painful to educate them and get the cards in their system (let alone the custom cuts). Frequently they have my submission for more than 6 months. I live with it because I am not a flipper and I really like the holder and to support the guys there, but I have questioned myself about it potentially being a fools errand in the long run.

I would like to know why PSA stopped grading the Titualares cards. I have a few that they graded and they seem appropriately graded (PSA1s and PSA 2's) and while they rate them as hand cut (probably out of caution), I do not believe that they were. Do you happen to know why they stopped grading these cards. That would be important (to me at least). I have to believe that these are isolated cases, although quite unfortunate ones given the importance of the cards.
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  #25  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low.
This is an important point. I have almost zero knowledge of cards but the more traditional soccer collectibles were incredibly hard to find from Southern and Central America through the 1980s and 1990s which was frustrating for collectors due to the World Cups being held in Uruguay in 1930, Brazil in 1950 and Chile in 1962.

Items such as programs and tickets from those tournaments were incredibly hard to find and when they did come up for auction, commandes high prices.

However, a number of high profile auctions (esp. by Sothebys in London in Q4 1999 which included one of the two finest collections of 1930 World Cup memorabilia) helped to highlight the money that could be made from such items. The result over the subsequent two decades has been a deluge of memorabilia from these regions and focused on these World Cup - some of the memorabilia has been high quality, some low quality and much is fake (esp early poster and tickets).

The net result, unsurprisingly, has been a sharp drop in prices, with the fake items leading to contagion in terms of prices realised for even the very good items with solid provenance.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
Alright, I'm looking at your website now ... pretty impressive ...

- 1923 V145s (Howie Morenz)
- 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski
- 1951 Parkhurst Gordie Howe
- 1958/59 Quigol Pele
- 1958 Alifabolaget Pele
- 1968 Sicker-Verlag Johan Cruyff
- 1974 Ageducatifs Michel Platini
- 2004 Panini Megacracks Lionel Messi

etc.

And you have all these cards because they are cool-looking rookies of amazing players, right? Alright, got ya!
Do you happen to notice that the hockey cards are part of SETS? I’m even doing the Quigol set with all the “worthless” commons.

Yeah, I collect cards that I like. For the set, player, time, etc. not because a TPG grades it or not.

Sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative. Nothing wrong with investing and/or reselling. But without collectors cards have no value. Not without PSA.

Last edited by Anish; 07-25-2018 at 08:52 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:26 AM
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I think Star BKB is a perfect example of the PSA mindset. They are so dominant that they don't see the need to expand the list of issues they will grade if it's at all controversial. On the non-sports side they are notorious for kicking back cards that aren't already in their database because it's just not worth the time for them to do the necessary research.
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  #28  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I don't know if soccer rookies are defined as tightly as other sports but isn't Cruyff's rookie the 1967 Palirex? Not saying anything negative about the Sicker Verlag, I paid a lot of money for one myself.
A good time for my first post as I've been looking at which Cruyff rookie to pick up down the line.

Isn't the Palirex collection from the 68/69 season as it features all the teams taking part in the 68/69 European Cup? There is no way they would have known who all the champions would be at the start of the season in 67. For example Juventus were Italian champions in 66/67, Milan in 67/68 but Milan feature in the collection. Likewise both Manchester clubs feature as Man Utd were European Champions in 67/68, Man City English champions in the same year so they both qualified for the 68/69 European Cup. That would mean the earliest it could be from is May 1968?

I saw the Sicker Verlag Bundesliga ASSE 1968 album has a fixture list in the back of the album that has all the results from the first half of the season & lets you fill in the results for the return fixtures from January on. That would mean the earliest it could be from is January 1968?
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  #29  
Old 07-26-2018, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
Big populace, but poor. Absolutely the case. However, you have seen these cards? They are slightly more than paper and must have been extremely cheap to make.. why? Because even the poor could afford them. That is my hypothesis. I am not 100% sure, but that is my thought. Still whatever the numbers, they will pale in comparison to the number of 1950's Topps baseball cards... I just think that there will be substantially more found when/if word gets out of the value and the TPGs continue to grade them. It is still shocking to me that the VAV number is so low. Significantly more scarce than I have expected prior to researching the population reports.
The stock makes card survival even less likely. Look at the paper Cuban issues. A Montiel that isn’t near trashed is rare.

I am sure more will emerge. That has been the case with my beloved Argentinean boxing issues. When sellers realized there’s a US market for the cards they started selling on eBay and now you can find the more common issues regularly.
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Last edited by Exhibitman; 07-26-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:45 AM
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Default Fair enough....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
The stock makes card survival even less likely. Look at the paper Cuban issues. A Montiel that isn’t near trashed is rare.

I am sure more will emerge. That has been the case with my beloved Argentinean boxing issues. When sellers realized there’s a US market for the cards they started selling on eBay and now you can find the more common issues regularly.
Agree with you that survival in good condition is near impossible, but if housed in the album, I think that many will make it. Noticed the same thing for the Argentine soccer cards. They are more available, but still very tough to get.
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