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  #11  
Old 08-05-2018, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by aljurgela View Post
Fair enough. Certainly that is one of the most famous cards (and most valuable), so that would hit the mark for most. My criteria was a bit different. Onto a couple of the other points....

I can pretty much guarantee that most Brits would not know who Honus Wagner is, so I am not surprised that Billy Meredith seems obscure to US collectors. However, I am pretty sure that most Brits would have heard of Babe Ruth. I could be wrong, but I think that this is reasonable given the amount of cards issued overseas that include him (pretty much like Pele - the global super star with cards of him issued all over the world). Therefore, in defining my "Wagner" I was looking for a valuable card of an amazing player / HOFer from a highly collected prewar set that was not just the rookie card of the sports best player - that is easy. I was also trying to stay away from post war cards in the spirit of the Wagner (which would include all Pele cards).

BTW, Billy Meredith had a 20+ year career and have many cards issued of him and he (and Steve Bloomer) are probably the top two early British Football stars. Of course there is no true Wagner of soccer cards... was just hoping to have fun with some entrants and see what others thought.

This was just meant to be a fun conversation and I was hoping to get some other "entrants" to the game from other posters to see what other cards are out there.
This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.
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Last edited by Bored5000; 08-05-2018 at 06:23 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2018, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
This is a great discussion, so don't take my opinion as criticism. I enjoy the discussion.

I think the Balas Futebol Pele card and the Taddy and Co. Billy Meredith card are just too rare to qualify as the Wagner of soccer cards. The Wagner T206 isn't at all rare relative to many pre-war baseball cards. Honus Wagner himself has several cards that are far, far more elusive than the T206. Much of the mystique of the Wagner T206 is because it at least circulates once in a while. That is why I would go with the Quigol Pele.

The card at least has to sell/go to auction once or twice a year or so IMO to be a Wagner equivalent. Look at some of the other cards that are often considered Wagner T206 equivalents -- the 1935 National Chicle Bronko Nagurski for American football, the 1948 Bowman George Mikan for basketball, the C55 Georges Vezina for hockey. All those cards are from mainstream sets, yet none of those cards are impossible rarities.
Yeah... those are all good choices for the other sports... I would add the Rocky G Leaf for boxing as well. It is hard to say that any high dollar soccer cards have been auctioned until very recently.
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2018, 12:53 PM
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In my opinion, not knowing much about this, any topic in a soccer card discussion has to begin with Pele. So if he has a rare, expensive, but not impossible rookie -- that's a good enough analogue to the Wagner for me.
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  #14  
Old 08-05-2018, 03:31 PM
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In my opinion, not knowing much about this, any topic in a soccer card discussion has to begin with Pele. So if he has a rare, expensive, but not impossible rookie -- that's a good enough analogue to the Wagner for me.
The Quigol Pele card being mentioned in this thread is the card Anish (page one of this thread) uses for his avatar. Heritage just sold a PSA 8 of the card for $33,600 last month.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...Auction-120115
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:00 PM
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There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.

Last edited by Anish; 08-05-2018 at 04:39 PM. Reason: VV
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Old 08-05-2018, 04:23 PM
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You mean Graziano.
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  #17  
Old 08-05-2018, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
The Quigol Pele card being mentioned in this thread is the card Anish (page one of this thread) uses for his avatar. Heritage just sold a PSA 8 of the card for $33,600 last month.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/olympic-ca...Auction-120115
That's a pretty good return for the guy who likely paid a fraction of that. World Cup bounce or market shift, I guess we'll see.
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  #18  
Old 08-05-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Anish View Post
There’s a difference between an auction house calling a card a Wagner equivalent in order to promote it and the card actually being comparable based on the criteria established by Al.

The Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina all feature inaugural HOF inductees from top sets. However, none is a SSP. The Mikan and Nagurski are high number cards and accordingly relative short prints, but still readily available; I’ve owned all three of these cards but will never own a Wagner. It’s not rare for a Pre-War card but it’s incredibly rare relative to the rest of the non-SP’s in the set.

Graziano, from what I’ve just read, fits the criteria. I can’t think of any soccer card that does. The most popular sets from what I’ve seen are probably the Wills and Ogden’s tobacco cards, the AB&C Gum cards, and the Panini World Cup stickers...but I don’t even really know. Part of my goal in asking what everyone was collecting was to see which sets people are collecting. But this is just a small group of English speakers on a vintage baseball forum haha.

The Pele Quigol or other card might be the “Ruth RC” of soccer...but the Wagner is not even close to being a RC. That’s not what makes it *the* card.

Anyway, any discussion of vintage cards is a fun one in my opinion and I certainly don’t mean to shoot down other ideas while offering my own. I just don’t see a Wagner equivalent anywhere apart from boxing.
I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is an interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.
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Last edited by Bored5000; 08-08-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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  #19  
Old 08-05-2018, 09:04 PM
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Default Love the discussion

And the fact that nobody can propose any prewar alternatives probably makes the whole topic clear.... outside of Pele rookies, there are no other real potential Wagner cards.

From my perspective, the Meredith 1913-14 Taddy is still as good a choice as any. But I would also propose some alternatives (which also do not trade)...

Would anybody like to see some of my other entrants to the conversation?
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  #20  
Old 08-05-2018, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
I agree this is a very interesting discussion. The Nagurski, Vezina, and Mikan cards are almost universally on a "Mt. Rushmore" of cards for that particular sport. I think the fact that you have owned all three of them, but will never be able to afford a Wagner T206 is because baseball far and away trumps everything else when it comes to prices. There are numerous $10,000+ baseball cards of players that the general public has never even heard of.

Not that Joe Orlando is the be all and end all when it comes to cards, but IIRC those cards were the highest ranked cards in their particular sport when he did his top 200 sports cards book.

There is no "correct" criteria for what make a card a Wagner equivalent in other sports. But to me, I think the card has to trade hands at least once or twice a year. That is why I would go with the Nagurski card over the Anonymous (John Dunlop) Mayo card for American football. The Just So Cy Young card would, no, doubt, fetch an eye-popping price if it were to go to auction. But it is just not common enough to be compared to the mystique of the Wagner. Being easily available has not hurt the desirability (and mystique) of the '52 Topps Mantle at all.

The Graziano card is interesting case; it is far away the most valuable boxing card in the hobby, but Graziano (while a world champion) is not on anyone's list of top 10 or top 20 all-time boxers. Same thing for the McKinley card from the 1932 U.S. Caramel set. Hockey and baseball also have some extreme short prints that sell for five or even six figures based solely the issuing company not printing many examples so a prize could not be redeemed.
Sure, but the cost is a function of it being a short print - not simply because itís a baseball card. If it were printed in the same quantity as the Cobb, the Cobb would likely sell for more and the Wagner would be as attainable as any of the other cards mentioned.

You canít describe the importance of the Wagner without explaining that it is extremely short printed relative to the rest of the set and that the reason may have something to do with Wagner himself. Thatís not the case with Mikan, Nagurski, and Vezina. Those are more like the T206 Cobbís or Sporting News Ruths of their sports. I love my Pele Quigols and my C55 Vezina, but I couldnít with a straight face hold up either and say itís the T206 Wagner of anything.

But, yes, Al - what are your other ideas? XD
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