Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[oldjudge]

If you can't detect a trim is that OK? if you can't detect rebuilt corners is that OK? This is a slippery slope you have gotten on.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If you can't detect a trim is that OK? if you can't detect rebuilt corners is that OK? This is a slippery slope you have gotten on.

cleaning is not trimming...



Of course there are some TPG's that miss trimming on some cards, but I would hope that most of it does get caught. And rebuilding is not even close to simply cleaning a stain or dirt from a card.



So all ball players that slide into home and get dirt on their knees...should they not be able to wipe it off??? That would result in alteration!!!

[wonkaticket]

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

[teetwoohsix]

I just have a question, and will refrain on saying what I think of this.

Mr. Towle admits he uses "chemicals" to do his work. So, my question would be this: Since chemicals are admittedly being used, are there any guarantees that 20 years down the road the card/s that this process was done to will not begin to degrade from the chemical exposure? That includes paper degradation, ink fading, etc? Obviously in the short term, it appears that all traces of whatever mysterious chemicals are being used are not detectable. But, I'm wondering about the long term effects-20, 25, 30 years from now-have any long term studies been done?

Thanks-

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I always find it fascinating how much collectors will pay for high grade baseball cards when so much can be done to enhance them, much of it undetectable. You would think that there would have to be a very high level of confidence to pay many thousands of dollars for a pristine card, but the only thing that ever seems to matter is the number on the slab. Nothing deters a buyer as long as the label reads 8, 9, or higher. It's an amazing phenomenon.

I couldn't agree with you more Barry. It's amazing beyond rational comprehension and I'll only add that this phenomenon in the Pre-War context also applies to just about all grades - not just 8's or higher.

[barrysloate]

I know Dan. And I don't think collectors want to know what is really going on. They would much prefer to simply protect their investment, and sweep all the bad news under the carpet.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

[glynparson]

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not. removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Wonka is correct as are the others showing concern for what this does to the future of the card. This is not the same as removing wax from the front of a card with a nylon stocking. Adding a chemical to the card does, if the chemical remains at all, change the card wether we can tell or not removing the wax restores the card to the original state. I fail to see how we can defend this practice until the long term effects of this chemical exposure are known.

While I do not have a problem with what Dick does, I too wonder about long term effects. I know Dick has been doing stain removal for years, and would be curious about the card conditions of his earlier work. If any deterioration can be detected at all, I imagine my eyes would need some help from a scientist to tell me what is going on inside the card fabric.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

Shawn if you dump chocolate milk on your cards that’s a tough break you.

Otherwise not sure I follow your thinking?

I don’t recall the hobby having an issue with people doctoring cards to lower their value secretly before selling to folks.

Cheers,

John

[t206trader]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Johnka Wonka McDonka

Ok, I am wondering about your question? So John, if I dumped chocolate milk (that is a hypothetical liquid - could be pomegranate rind as well) on a lets say 1914 CJ Jackson and added all kinds of stains to make it look darker & dirtier or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner.... and you could obviously tell.

Would you mind paying an inferior price due to my "detectable" face lift?

More importantly, would you expect full disclosure of how I altered the cards? My name, when, where, what and how???

Thank you,
Shoney Baloney

No use in crying over spilt milk. Sorry, had to.

[atx840]

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

That would suck, Chris...a lot of good buddies here on the board would be very bummed out if that happened as they collect very high end cards. Just not sure it's worth the crash of that part of our hobby to do so.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by atx840

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

I've heard a few similar statements such as yours. However, your statement is based on your own personal feelings. It infers that the next owner of a "cleaned" card would care as much as you do. What if that next owner doesn't care that their card was "cleaned" by a previous owner? It's a fact, just from reading this thread, that some people don't care (as long as there is no detectable evidence).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Maybe overlooked, but in the "Spring Cleaning Comes Early To The Plank Household" thread linked above, post # 34 was very interesting:

Originally Posted by Doug

The last time I saw T206s that white was when I soaked a few beaters in warm water mixed with a small scoop of Oxi Clean just to see if it would work. They came out with borders and backs that were snow white with no chemical smell at all. I sold them with the disclosure that they had been cleaned and they later popped up on eBay in slabs.

Could it be that simple, with the Plank-maybe Oxi Clean?

Sincerely, Clayton

[dstudeba]

Each collecting area has to make up its own mind about the extent or restoration they will permit. Just because it is allowed in paintings or movie posters doesn't mean it is acceptable everywhere else. In the antique furniture market uncleaned examples are more valuable than cleaned ones, similar in the coin world.

Also I highly doubt that the work he does is undetectable. It is imperceptible but not undetectable. Take some of the cards into any undergraduate analytical chemistry lab and you will be able to detect a difference between a card that has been through his process and one that hasn't.

It might take a little more work, but you could also tell the difference between a card that has been soaked and one that hasn't.

[ctownboy]

I hate the idea of cards being cleaned to increase their value. It doesn't matter that they can't be detected NOW.

With works of art, they were created to be LOOKED at and admired. The value for them comes from being ABLE to see the beauty. If they are dirty or damaged then the beauty (and pleasure) of looking at them is diminished. Cleaning and/or restoring them brings them BACK (or close to) what they were before and THAT is something to be looked at and admired. Even when cleaning and restoring, the people doing the work try and make sure they don't do something that will cause problems in the future.

With automobiles, yes, they are being restored. Why? Because the original intent of the car was to be driven. For most people, the pleasure of owning that car was to be able to DRIVE it. If it is dirty, damaged and/or undrivable then the pleasure of the original intent is not there. So, people get their cars restored.

BUT, that restoration work is usually disclosed (or is glaringly obvious). In years past, those restored cars sold for much more than unrestored cars or cars that were cobbled together. However, in the last five to 10 years, things have somewhat changed and original cars are selling for as much or more than cars that have been restored. Why? People have gotten tired of cars that are over - restored (and the cost that is associated with doing it).

With baseball cards, what was the original intent? Usually it was for them to be used as enticements or advertising for products. After they were out in the public, they were played with, flipped, traded and collected (not necessarily in that order).

1914 Cracker Jack cards are, for example, EXPECTED to have candy stains on them. Some cigarette cards are expected to have tobacco stains on them. Some gum cards are expected to have gum stains on them. That is how they were packaged and that is how they originally came out. After that, the normal wear and tear of being handled and traveling about for years and years is to be expected.

People pay BIG money today for cards in GREAT condition because they are "supposed" to be abnormal. After being packaged with products, handled, flipped, traded and played with by kids, boxed, stored and moved, they are SUPPOSED to show that. Cards that DIDN'T get this treatment and stayed close to original get the BIG money paid for them.

So, imho, cards that are trimmed, rebacked, have color added, have corners rebuilt or are cleaned, are ALL altered and shouldn't receive the BIG dollar prices that they sometimes do and that is because they are NOT original and have NOT lasted the years in original condition.

As far as cleaning cards and them not being able to be detected. So, what? Not only should people with cleaned (and enhanced value) cards be worryng about what the chemicals are doing to them now or what they will do in the future but they should ALSO be worrying about technology.

No, there may not be technology that can detect the cleaning now (or, if there is it is so limited or so expensive that it cant or wont be used) that doesn't mean that technology wont be here in the future. So what happens then?

I imagine cards that have been micro - trimmed with lasers or that have been chemically cleaned will be worth less money and those people who are saying "no big deal" today will say something different when it comes time to sell those cards and they (or their heirs) receive less (probably much less) money than they were expecting.

David Smith

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

So Mike if I cleaned say a 1914 CJ Jackson and removed all the stains made it look brighter and cleaner or a T206 Polar Bear Cobb in the same manner...and you couldn't tell.

You wouldn't mind to find out later you paid a premium due to my "undectable" face lift?

I believe that you only " washed your face ", to use you analogy. If you had a " face lift ", that would involve some form of reconstructive surgery. A card is only worth what someone will pay, and if I felt the card was worth what I paid then I am happy with my deal.