Two Crappy Ebay Experiences

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Posted By: Matt

Two really lousy experiences the past few weeks; maybe somebody has some insight for me, or at least will learn from my mistakes. I buy many raw cards on ebay, so the risk of getting a lemon is there.

1) Bought 3 T206s, and 2 Goudeys from an ebay seller (bought off ebay) with good feedback, although most of it was with recent cards. He said he was selling off an old timers collection for him. 4 of the 5 cards came back from SGC fine, but one came back as "questionable authenticity." Upon contacting the seller asking for a return/refund, he claims that I need to get a second opinion from PSA sice he doesn't trust SGC. Furthermore, he claims he has no proof that the card I have is the same one he sent me, so maybe I switched cards and am trying to screw them. How could I prove that the card is the same?

2) Bought a card from a seller on ebay that was visibly a bad fake as soon as it arrived, despite the sellers promises of authenticity. The seller left me no return address, stopped answering email and canceled his ebay account. A chargeback with my CC company succeeded and I got a credit, but then Paypal responded with the sellers home address and said since I didn't return the card, they took the money back. I sent the card with delivery confirmation back to the seller, but now Paypal claims that since I didn't send it with signature confirmation, there is no proof he actually got it. I'm certain had I sent with signature conf, there is no way the guy would have signed, so what should I have done? Furthermore, now I'm stuck because I already sent the card back.

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Posted By: JK

Matt,

Unfortunately I dont have any advice that can help with the current situations, but for future issues, I would advise that you do not keep any money in your paypal account - that way, if there is ever a chargeback situation with your cc, you dont have to worry about paypal turing around and taking the money back.

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Posted By: Jason L

a bank account, can't Paypal just take the money from there?
thanks,
Jason

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Posted By: sagard

PayPal can't just dip into your bank account. However the next time you pay or get paid for anything PayPal will seize that money.

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Posted By: Matt

Josh - Jason is correct; I don't keep money in my Paypal account. Paypal took the money from my Credit Card company. More specifically, Paypal sent my CC a letter saying I hadn't returned the card (which my CC knew since I told them the seller gave me no return address). Since Paypal produced the return address, my chargeback was reversed and the CC gave back the money. My CC said I could get the money back if I returned the card to that address, which I did with delivery conf, but then Paypal said delivery conf isn't good enough.

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Posted By: Steve

Email the seller with the name of the internet crimes investigator of HIS home towns' PD, that you'll be contacting in 24 hours, if no refund given. (very easy to find this info when Googled)

Noone wants their town cops to know they're sleazy.

This tactic has resulted in many a positive outcome. Good luck Matt.

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Posted By: Matt

Steve - the problem is that in both cases I don't know how the threat could be taken as desired.
In case 1, the seller is claiming I switched the cards and I don't have a way to prove that to the authorities. In case 2, the card was returned so I don't even have access to it anymore.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Matt,

In the first case...you might get lucky if the seller had a clear scan with the auction. Maybe then you could show a scan of the card to him along with his auction pic. Normally an older card will have enough unique characteristics to tell two apart on close inspection (wear, crease, corners, centering etc), but if his pic is already gone then probably no luck. Also, maybe post a pic of the card here. Perhaps SGC did get it wrong. 4 of 5 were good. Have you had any board members' opinions on the card?

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences and (unfortunately) that is why I have to buy everything graded. I would love to buy some raw, but only when I can do it in person and feel good about what I'm getting.

Shawn

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Posted By: JK

Matt,

You did not explain initially that the cc reversed the chargeback. You made it sound as though paypal simply took the money from your account. In reality, paypal didnt take the money back, the cc company gave it to them after they appealed the chargeback.

Even though paypal does not recognize delivery without a signature, that does not mean your cc company wont recognize that a return attempt has been made. My guess is that delivery confirmation will be sufficient for your cc company to side with you, their customer, over paypal.

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Posted By: JK

Jason,

I agree with sagard - paypal cannot legally dip into your bank account without your authorization.

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Posted By: Matt

Shawn - that's a good idea - the listing is down, but I do have emails from the seller with the scans.

Josh - sorry I wasn't clear in my initial post. It would be great if the CC company would take delivery conf as proof of return, but they are letting Paypal dictate the criterion here since they are viewing Paypal as a neutral party, and Paypal only recognizes signature confirmation, which wouldn't have happened in this case. I agree since I am their customer they should be on my side.

I think in the second case, I got messed over 3 times: once by the seller, once by a Paypal policy requiring signature confirmation which can easily be declined by a bad seller, and once by my CC company who took Paypals requirements as reasonable.

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Posted By: Sean BH

Matt,

Sorry to hear about this.

Was the card in the second case valued over $250? I always thought anything valued under $250 can be shipped with delivery confirmation and anything over $250 needed signature confirmation.

Sdbh

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Posted By: Matt

Sean - you don't need to declare value to USPS unless you are shipping insured.
Here is the USPS page about delivery confirmation:
http://www.usps.com/send/waystosendmail/extraservices/deliveryconfirmationservice.htm

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Posted By: Sean BH

Matt,
I was actually thinking about PayPal's requirements for shipping. Did they tell you to return the card with signature confirmation? I know has a seller, technically when you have a purchase paid with PayPal you have to send it with delivery confirmation if the value is under $250 but if the value is over $250 signature confirmation is required.

sdbh

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Posted By: JK

Matt,

One other suggestion. If you dont currently insure your cards, I would consider doing so, even if only for a small amount. It doesnt cost much for insurance through Collectables Insurance Agency (CIA) - if you have insurance, they will cover lost or stolen cards that you have paid for but not yet received. You would have to confirm with them, but I believe they would also cover fraudulent transactions such as the one that just happened to you.

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Posted By: Matt

Sean - The way it went down is that the CC company sided with Paypal once Paypal provided the address. When they got the address to me, I promptly used it to return the card and "proof of delivery" was the wording the CC company used. I even called to clarify if "delivery confirmation" would qualify as "proof of delivery" and the rep on the phone said they didn't have an official policy on it, but he didn't see why it shouldn't count. Then, I provided the info to the CC company, who turned around to Paypal to show them the delivery conf, to which Paypal responded, that delivery conf wasn't good enough. I would have sent it signature required, except I'm certain the seller would have just denied it since he know he scammed me and I would have been nowhere and out the shipping $$.

Josh - that's an interesting suggestion. Of course, then I am at the mercy of the insurance company who could have the same difficult rules - return needs a signature confirmation or they could also claim I switched the cards.

Can anyone who has insured their collection speak to how coverage works in cases of sale where you buy something that is bad?

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Posted By: JK

Matt,

I have insurance through CIA. I highly recommend it. As far as claims, you only need to prove a loss. If covered, the method of delivery used only affects the max. value of the claim. For example, if I recall correctly, first class mail w/o insurance and no sig. confirmation - the max claim is $250. Insured mail with sig. confirmation - $2500; Registered or express mail w/sig. confirmation - the max claim is your policy limit.

There is a link to CIA on the N54 links section - Im sure if you called them and explained the situation they would be able to give you an idea if you would have been covered or not.

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Posted By: S Gross

Only one suggestion -----------> Sounds like your CC screwed you ..... so, screw them !!!!

Call up your CC company, go over everything that transpired, and then say something like: "I thought you would provide better service for a valued customer. Obviously you don't want my business anymore. Please cancel my account." Then go silent and just listen as the poor shelp of a rep tries to save your account (these reps have a quota of accounts they must save). Depending on how much you're talking about, there is a decent chance they'll cover you. Hell, go hard on them (i.e. "I just got my mail today, and there are 3 or 4 companies who want my business" etc.). It worked for me once (not card related), and even though I'm a nice laid back guy, it's fun to be a dick once in a while.

Good luck, Scott

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Posted By: Red

This was a problem situation and you needed to protect yourself. Calling up to see if DC was good enough for proof of delivery should have been a warning to you that maybe a signature confirmation would be more appropriate in this matter. Paypal really preys on people not knowing the rules. They are fighting for that money as hard as you and the seller. If Paypal's money is at risk the will take it away from wherever they can get it, and usually this means from the good guy. The bad guys know to take the money and run.

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Posted By: Steve

If I followed this correctly the reason he had to have signature confirmation was that the deal was over that amount initially as it was part of a 5 card deal? he was only trying to get back the dough on 1 card from that deal? Paypal does not allow for refunds to be made in dribs and drabs. The entire amount had to be refunded.


Or at least I think that is what happened?


Sorry you find yourself in this predicament.

And at one time paypal would dip into bank accounts and had to settle a class action regarding it.


Steve

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Posted By: JK

I also agree with Scott. You need to put some pressure on the cc company. If you have only spoken to reps, ask to speak to a supervisor as well - they are usually far more reasonable.

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Posted By: Matt

Red - the seller would certainly have denied any package from me with signature confirmation knowing it would be all the proof I needed to get the money away from him. Delivery Confirmation was the only method which was proof of delivery that didn't require acceptance from the seller.

The seller of the 5 cards has nothign to do with the 2nd case, it was just a jerky seller who wants me to prove I didn't switch cards and thinks SGC doesn't know what they're doing.

I contacted the collectibles insurance company to see what they would have done for me here.

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

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Posted By: Steve

Gotcha, still, I am sorry you are going through this. Good luck!


Steve

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Posted By: Matt

Here is CIA's response. Basically, they don't cover buyers in such scenarios. They do have something to cover sellers up to $250:

"There is a coverage on our dealers policy called Internet Default, but
there is only $250 coverage. We do not pay for fraud. Internet payment
default means the default of payment of bank checks, credit cards or
electronic payments that you accepted in good faith in exchange for the
sale of covered property transacted over the internet.

In order to make the claim you would need such documentation as the
receipt of sale and whatever documentation you held showing the type of
default. The claim would then be reviewed by the insurance carrier."

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Posted By: Jason

one of the many reasons I quit accepting or using paypal.

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Posted By: scott levy

Matt,

Sorry to hear about your struggles. It's no fun when you have to fight just to have the right thing done.

I know my CC company (amex) has honored items sent back to seller and has credited my account in the past (even after paypal swore that I couldn't recover the money).

If you don't have amex, maybe sometime to consider.

Best of Luck,
SGL

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Posted By: Matt

Here is the latest (and final) response from the ebay seller (orvhughs) in case 1 above. If anyone has any advice on what I do now, please let me know. The threat of local law enforcement drew a laugh from him.

"i went to mr stewart today and explained to him what you had told me. we looked for the receipt for the card but so far have not located it (again, it was purchased from kit young).

he is adamant about the fact the card is a real card and not some knock off. as far as i can tell, sgc did not say that either.

as a seller, not the owner, i can not give you a refund or exchange....we feel that the card is authenic and we sold it as such. again, once it leaves our possesion, we are not responsible for what happened between you and sgc?

do what ever you have to do, and i'm sure mr stewart will do what he has to do."

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Hi Matt, I did an ebay search for seller id orvhughs but it didn't come up. Is this the correct seller id?

Rick

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Posted By: teflon-don

that why you always buy graded cards. you purchased raw got burned and now you are crying. will give you my crying towel.

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Posted By: Matt

Rick - sorry about that. His ebay ID is omhdawg. His name is Orvis Hughes (from Bloomingdale, Georgia).

Don - I don't think I'm crying about getting counterfeits - I was aware of the risks. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try and recoup my money from crooks.

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Posted By: leon

Please put your name by your posts in the future as you are not well known by that handle. Say what you want to, per the rules, but you need to be known....Thanks for your understanding. regards

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Posted By: Matt

beware - this guy just posted a lot of T207s. Read his email to me a few posts above if you want a reference.

if anyone wants to email him through ebay and let him know that they won't do business with him until he makes it right with me, it might help me get my money back without bringing legal maneuvering into this.

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Posted By: Matt

It now appears both sellers have re-surfaced on ebay.
Case #1 is seller omhdawg and his stuff (inclouding a lot of raw T207 and a raw Mantle rc) is here:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZomhdawgQQfrppZ100QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQrdZ0

The seller in Case #2 has come back with a new ebay userID - vjizzle2384 and his stuff is here (he listed some forged Mantle/Ruth singatures yesterday, but ebay has since removed them) The one remaining item has received a visit form Stew P Dazzle:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZvjizzle2384