American Greed-CNBC

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

OK perhaps I read too much into your statement about how the elderly should do their homework.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by spaidly

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

I do not feel bad for the two separate ebay sellers who about 10 years ago offered as BIN a SGC 88 63 Rose for $800 and the other a PSA 8 68 Ryan RC also for $800. Ironically, it appears that both sellers did do their research.....the current price guides at the time had a "high" price listed for each of these cards at $800 which is my guess why they listed at the price they did. Unfortunately, neither of these sellers reviewed completed sales on ebay , which at the time, were about twice what I paid for each card.

Again, I do not feel bad, and likely neither would have the next buyer who would have gladly bought either of these cards within minutes of me (and of the original listing).

My guess is that each of these sellers were both glad that their items sold as quick as they did, much like the garage sale seller in the show.

[Snapolit1]

I knew a lawyer down south who represented an oil and gas company that would offer indigent people money for their properties, without disclosing that hours of research revealed that there were valuable gas or mineral deposits that could be sucked out of their land. Ring the doorbell with a check book in hand. Were the people happy with the deal? Probably. Were they taken advantage of? Probably. Should a buyer have to disclose significant facts not known to the seller? Grey area in a lot of ways.
I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

LOL....yeah, that is a bit steep. I think I pay about 50% and feel it's a good deal....then I go to sell and lose 5%....

And back to the original topic - I wish more authorities would get involved in the fraud in our hobby. As has been said many times, we are fortunate to have SA Brusokas in the hobby. Hopefully he will be assigned to it permanently.

.

[spaidly]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

I agree with this and that karma is a bitch. I also believe if both parties in a deal are happy then a good deal went down. Like so much in life, nothing is black and white. We live in the grey and each of us must decide where they are comfy.

Scott

[botn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

[mantlefan]

Originally Posted by botn

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

I don't know at exactly what percentage of the value I would draw the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off. But I do find it almost laughably ironic that the buyer then turns around and complains about getting cheated.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mantlefan

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

I hate it when that happens.
And you need your full name out there, Frank. Thanks....

[botn]

Originally Posted by mantlefan

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

I think you have me mistaken for Gerry Schwartz who was Moser's partner.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

I hate it when that happens.
And you need your full name out there, Frank. Thanks....

He's got his full name at the bottom of his post.

[mantlefan]

It appears I have my G. Schwartzes mixed up. Greg did not cheat me. My apologies.

[Jenx34]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Here is the problem with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

The seller didn't get what he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

Great post Chris, I agree completely.

Because of someone not knowing they was selling error versions of a card I recently picked up $100 worth of cards for $3. I am pretty sure we are both happy because I paid their full asking price.

I have also bought a complete vintage set at the buyers asking price. The cards turned out to be much nicer that what I thought I was buying. I sent the seller an addition 40% of their asking price.

[RedsFan1941]

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

I think it is more we all agree Mastro is a scum bag but we differ on the garage sale.

[Mdmtx]

With regard to the lowball price on the Goudey cards, I have a plausible theory. Just guessing, but with all the publicity cards have received in the past 30+ years, these cards may have been taken to a "reputable" card shop for appraisal and from ignorance or from larcenous intent, they were appraised as fakes. As we know our hobby is full of slicksters. The way I conduct myself in a purchase from a seller with no card experience is to make a reasonable guess at the market value and explain roughly the cost, time and risk associated with a sale of that nature. Then offer a price to purchase them. I have been turned down plenty of times, but I have bought plenty and never had a night of lost sleep from from putting the proverbial screws to someone. For those of you ok with 1% purchases from unsuspecting sellers, should heed my previous post - Karma is a bitch.

Mark Medlin

[Jenx34]

Originally Posted by rats60

The seller didn't get what
he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

The problem is you are using #s you know after the fact. There is no way he knew what was exactly what was in that box, what quality and 100% sure they were reprints or commons underneath the nice cards on top. He thought there was some good stuff there and made an offer. The guy took it. In that situation, you arent sitting down at a table, inspecting each card and referring to the price guide of your choice. That's not how it works. You look at something, you make a quick judgement on its value to you, make a deal and get out. It works that way for both parties. The #s you refer to aren't known at the time. So your scenario just isn't realistic. It's easy to criticize after the fact.

My wife recently bought some old China in a pattern she was familiar with. Couple was having a moving sale and had all the dishes wrapped and packed neatly. She asked how much and was told $40. She accepted quickly thinking she could get $300 - $500 or even more if she took the time to sell them individually. Did my wife cheat or take advantage? Hell no, she gave them what they asked. We got home and found 2 pieces broken in half and many others chipped or cracked. Now we may only get $50 or maybe $100 if we're lucky. We took the risk and lost. But there were 8 other people there looking at stuff at the same time. The sellers didn't want her unpacking the entire box and inspecting every piece. There was no room or place to do so. You buy what looks good to you and you pay what the seller will take. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. In this case, the guy won big, but because of a crook masquerading as an advocate, he didn't win as big as he could have. Stop armchair quarterbacking while watching a replay of the game and understand the reality of what happens in the moment.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

The problem is you are using #s you know after the fact. There is no way he knew what was exactly what was in that box, what quality and 100% sure they were reprints or commons underneath the nice cards on top. He thought there was some good stuff there and made an offer. The guy took it. In that situation, you arent sitting down at a table, inspecting each card and referring to the price guide of your choice. That's not how it works. You look at something, you make a quick judgement on its value to you, make a deal and get out. It works that way for both parties. The #s you refer to aren't known at the time. So your scenario just isn't realistic. It's easy to criticize after the fact.

My wife recently bought some old China in a pattern she was familiar with. Couple was having a moving sale and had all the dishes wrapped and packed neatly. She asked how much and was told $40. She accepted quickly thinking she could get $300 - $500 or even more if she took the time to sell them individually. Did my wife cheat or take advantage? Hell no, she gave them what they asked. We got home and found 2 pieces broken in half and many others chipped or cracked. Now we may only get $50 or maybe $100 if we're lucky. We took the risk and lost. But there were 8 other people there looking at stuff at the same time. The sellers didn't want her unpacking the entire box and inspecting every piece. There was no room or place to do so. You buy what looks good to you and you pay what the seller will take. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. In this case, the guy won big, but because of a crook masquerading as an advocate, he didn't win as big as he could have. Stop armchair quarterbacking while watching a replay of the game and understand the reality of what happens in the moment.

Your justification doesn't work for me. I have bought lots of collections over the years. You can get a pretty good idea of value pretty quickly. The guy offered 500 for a collection he netted almost 50k and he thinks was worth 300k to 350k. You can get a lot closer than that at a quick glance.

In your wife's example, she paid 40 for something she thought was worth 300-500. What if she had told them they were only worth $1? That is more in line with what happened.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

Now that all this happened a while ago another thing no one seems to have brought up. Several people stopped dealing cards, quit auctions houses and sold their collections that got outed during this fiasco. I bet most of them are sad now. Compare them to Ken Goldin who basically give the big FU to every body because he knew the majority of collectors would buy from the devil himself if they though they could get a good deal. Amazing how we all see the same thing yet interpret so differently.

[drcy]

An expert can get into trouble if he lies to get a steal from someone. One of the Antiques Roadshow experts-- I believe in Civil War items-- got into legal trouble because he lied to the owner about what he had to get it at a bargain price. If you represent yourself as an expert and an appraiser, then lie about what the person has and the value, that may be the difference.

Of course, dealers know that the case usually is that the unexperienced usually overestimate rather than underestimate the value of what they have.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I think it is more we all agree Mastro is a scum bag but we differ on the garage sale.

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

[rjackson44]

What ever happened to mastro ,what is he doing now ,,the show never mentioned it ,,

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

Interesting. Maybe those letters should be posted here?

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Uh no, not everyone on this board or even on this thread thinks Mastro is a scumbag. Some even wrote letters in support of Mastro at sentencing.

Unbelievable!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by irv

Unbelievable!

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

It is easier to process when you know Mastro sent out "gift baskets" to his friends. I only remember one person on here admitting to getting one.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I wish more had written asking the judge to keep him in the pen much longer. I did. Unfortunately, as Jeff said, some others went the other way which I confess I still cannot process very well.

It boggles my mind as well, and I wasn't even in the hobby at that time.

You know, this takes a little bit of the joy away from the hobby for me. I know people like Mastro exist, unfortunately, but to think people would still support him after they found out what he did and the countless people he ripped off, just boggles my mind!