V61 or W572 Fake Ad Back

[Zach Wheat]

I was going through some of my old notes on the V61 Neilsons Chocolate set and a question popped up for some of the more knowledgeable V61 collectors (Frank W or Rhett?).

Just as a review for those that may have missed the initial thread - the V61 set consists of 120 cards and has two different backs. A V61 - Type I card has a "Script" back ("Neilson's" is written in script with a larger font); the Type II back has "Neilson's" in a plain font). Since the V61 set shares the same photos with the W572, some 1921 Exhibits, etc., another VBC member came across a PSA mislabeled W572 with a V61 back which was labelled as a V61 due to the back. Rhett and Frank W. indicated that these backs were a modern enhancement, "created" post distribution.

Does anyone know if the W572's with a fake ad back can be found for both Type I & Type II's? Or just Type I? Or just Type II's?

Thanks.

Zach

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

I was going through some of my old notes on the V61 Neilsons Chocolate set and a question popped up for some of the more knowledgeable V61 collectors (Frank W or Rhett?).

Just as a review for those that may have missed the initial thread - the V61 set consists of 120 cards and has two different backs. A V61 - Type I card has a "Script" back ("Neilson's" is written in script with a larger font); the Type II back has "Neilson's" in a plain font). Since the V61 set shares the same photos with the W572, some 1921 Exhibits, etc., another VBC member came across a PSA mislabeled W572 with a V61 back which was labelled as a V61 due to the back. Rhett and Frank W. indicated that these backs were a modern enhancement, "created" post distribution.

Does anyone know if the W572's with a fake ad back can be found for both Type I & Type II's? Or just Type I? Or just Type II's?

Thanks.

Zach

I have never seen any W572 with any ad back. I collect "backs" and track them as much as possible. I think you might be confusing your ACC #'s?

W575-1's have had many fake and real ad backs....

[Zach Wheat]

I only saved a picture fo the front of the card.....it was labeled as a 1923 Neilson's Chocolate....unfortunately no back scan. Anyone save a copy of the back scan?

[Zach Wheat]

Here is a Type II V61 of Aldridge with the same pic.......I am just not sure which fake ad backs (Type I or II or both) were added to the W572's.

[Leon]

The PSA one is obviously labelled incorrectly. I would bet there is no ad on the back. The other Aldridge could be a W573 or V61 (type 1 or 2) as they both have the same fronts....

The only way to distinguish a W573 from a V61(either series) is to see the back. If it is blank it's probably a W573, though they are on thinner paper anyway, and if there is a Neilson's ad then it's a V61. I have not seen W573's with any fake (or real) backs though there could be some. Here are few W573's with ad backs....There aren't too many though and, as I said before, most of these type ad back cards are W575-1s, which Burdick actually classified as having various backs. Being a bit of a purist I classify most of the E121 ad back cards (not American Caramel but others) as W575-1. regards

[brianp-beme]

I seem to remember reading about W572's that had a fake (Neilson's?) ad stamped on the back...perhaps it was in the SCD catalog. I don't remember if they showed a picture of the back or not, just a listing under the name of the Mfg stamp and indicating that the stamps were not legit. And have never seen those Cafe du Monde cards Leon...It still is cool to see something new (and sometimes twice a day) after so many years of collecting.

Brian

[Leon]

I am sure I have only seen a small fraction of backs...so there is no doubt there could be some W572's that have ads, real or fake.

[fkw]

Lemke has a picture of one in the SCD Standard Catalog, its right after the other 2 Neilson sets (page 242 in the 2009 SCD).

I have seen a couple on eBay but not in a long time. The ones I saw were graded by PSA.

They are thought to be authentic W572's with a modern stamp on back.

I have always thought they might be completely authentic (stamp included), but Ive never seen one in person. The reason being the back on these is of a different design. It is block letter like the V61-2's, but the wording is different, V61-2's say "Neilsons Big League Bars", these W572's say "Neilsons Chocolate Bars", etc...... plus they both say 120 in series which is also right for the W572's.

[rhettyeakley]

Like Frank says they are authentic W572's that were believed to be "stamped" on back with an ad for Neilson's Chocolate in order to deceive.

I have never personally examined one myself and have also wondered about their authenticity...but I am not privy to the info that Lemke used in the SCD write-up, so I am unsure if it was proven that these were falsely stamped or if they have info as to who was doing it, when they were doing it, or anything else.

Without having all the known details surrounding the W572 baseball players story I would point out that it wasn't without precident that Neilson's would create smaller cards like this... there were two different car sets produced by Neilson's around the same time (one in B/W on front & one in color which share the same style back)...see scan here comparing size of W572 (well cut) to the car series (I forget the ACC # for the cars):


Please note: the supposed "stamped" baseball backs are completely different from these car backs, I bring up the car cards only to compare the sizes of the two sets

[Leon]

Thanks for showing that W572. I had never seen one like that, with the Neilsons back, and guess I missed the article on them. Without having the card in hand to inspect it's difficult to say if it's real or not. Even with card in hand it could be difficult.

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, just to clarify the card back I show above is that of one of the Car Series cards NOT the "stamped" baseball series spoken of here. I was simply pointing out hat Neilson's made a set of cards on thick paper stock roughly the same size as a W572, that all.

I have copied the image of the back of the "stamped" baseball series from the SCD (I hope Bob Lemke doesn't mid) below. This is the back whose authenticity is being questioned...

[Leon]

Thanks again, very much. Yes, I had misunderstood your post. That new one you posted looks very, very suspect. I would be surprised if it is real. regards

[fkw]

********Edited to say, Rhett answered my question

[Zach Wheat]

That's it. Thanks Rhett.

[Bob Lemke]

I did quite a lengthy investigation and article in SCD, probably 15+ years ago. Alan Hager (naturally) was up to his elbows in that scam.

As I recall, under microscopic exam, you can see that the back ink was applied after the card had been in circulation, creased, etc.