O/T Pet Peeve on Best Offers (Ebay)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Martin, I didn't say he won it for 50% more than what it was worth. I said he put in the only bid for an item that no one else thought was worth as much as he did. I suppose I presumed that when he saw that no one else even bid on the card he might have believed that he overpaid. I offered him basically the same amount of money that he paid which would have allowed him to get out of the card without a loss. How could I have been seeking to annoy him in that sense? The fact that he immediately tried to flip the card -- with no bids at all -- might have been more annoying to him I think.

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Posted By: Steve

Jeff with all due respect, what you have been saying makes little to no sense. (To me at least) How do you know that he is the only person that thought it was worth what he paid for it? Just because he was the only bidder does not make that a reality. Maybe for that day it does, it is very possible that other people feel it was worth what it sold for only they were not online or saw the auction, or for 100 other reasons. I agree with you that he could have replied to your offer but he is not obligated to. Also, and in closing, just because he put it up on ebay does not mean he wants to sell it, he may be seeing how many offers he would get. I can think of more reasons as to why people put things up on ebay w/o wanting to sell, (unless it is at there price) To say you wanted to help him get out from under a bad buy is a stretch IMO. (Even though I believe that was your intent.



Steve


edited to add my first name.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, I wasn't looking to help the seller do anything but sell me a card. As for your belief that there may have been others interested in the card, two facts:

1) No one but him bid on it the first time.
2) Weeks later, no one but me put an offer in on the card at his inflated price.

End of story.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm not sure I am comfortable with the idea of putting something up for auction, on ebay or elsewhere, without any intention of selling it. I know it's done, but I don't think it's a really such a great practice.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Many sellers are looking for that one buyer either impatient, naive, price-indifferent, or stupid to pay a crazy price. What's wrong with that? If it's my card I can do what I like with it, no?

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Posted By: Steve

Jeff

Since you feel it is the end of story i will not go any further.


Steve

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes Peter, anyone can do what they want, and ebay allows a reserve.

However, I'm just talking about good faith dealing, that's all. If an object has a fair market value of $1000 and you reserve it for $2500, you either have no intention of selling it or you are looking to rip someone off.

Technically allowed, not the greatest way to do business. Just my opinion.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Unless there is a misrepresentation as to the value of a card, I don't see an ethical problem. If it's wrong to overcharge for a baseball card at a fixed price sale, isn't it equally wrong to allow someone to bid a lunatic amount in an auction?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I don't think it's ethically wrong to try to lure someone into buying a card at a wildly inflated price; however, it is at the very least boorish and scummy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff articulated it better than I did. There is no ethical boundary crossed, it's just bad form.

People have sometimes come to me asking if I would sell them a special piece from my collection. I often respond I will only do so if they offer a crazy price. That is fine, because it is between the two of us.

But once I put something on ebay or in my catalog auction, there is sort of an unwritten agreement that I am prepared to sell the item for what the market will bear. If that weren't the case, then I should just try to sell it privately.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The whole desperate attempt to try to lure someone into spending more money on a card than what it is worth is just offensive, sorry. As an example, a couple years back I had been buying up cards of a certain player and spending a lot of money on the cards. I then received an unsolicited offer from a board member to sell me a "minor league card" of the player -- sight unseen -- for some obscene amount of money. Of course, the "team" the player was supposedly playing for on the card was a team the player never was on! I questioned the seller a bit about the card and received some vague, ridiculous answers. I then asked for a scan which, of course, never came.

I know that selling cards isn't my vocation but I think trying to lure buyers into spending too much money on a card is just a scummy thing to do. This is our hobby that we love. Perhaps it wouldn't be so much to ask that we treat each other with a bit more respect when it comes to buying/selling.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Gentlemen I don't see the big deal, and I certainly would not call guys whose business model works this way (one about whom frequent complaints have been lodged in this very forum comes to mind) scummy. If a guy prices a card too high, don't buy it. "End of story" lol. This is baseball cards, not home heating oil or food.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think it's a big deal either. I just don't care for it. That's all.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I don't see the difference between a lunatic paying a crazy price on ebay or placing a crazy bid in an auction. In both cases if a buyer wants to pay that price, so be it.

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Posted By: Steve

<<< But once I put something on ebay or in my catalog auction, there is sort of an unwritten agreement that I am prepared to sell the item for what the market will bear.>>>>

Barry I agree with you, however, who is to say what someone else can start an item in which they own at? If they want to set a price that is 2x-10x what previous examples sold for that is there business.


Jeff, In the last Goodwin auction a card, (Cepeda -Maris) 1962 topps sold for thousands when it can be bought on ebay all day long for 180.00. Knowing Bill Goodwin and his reputation I do not think any hanky panky went on, So, it does happen. A CU thread was devoted to it. My take (in this example) is 2 guys that do not buy from ebay must have gotten into a war, or thought the card had a shot at a nine. I have seen other examples as well.


Steve

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps Bill should have stepped in and told the bidders they were overpaying.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anybody is free to do whatever he wants. And if two people want to bid up a 180.00 common to thousands of dollars, that is fine too. All I am saying is my preference is to start items low and let bidders decide the final price.

When I look at ebay I ignore all lots that have a high starting bid, and zero bids on them. I will only participate when I see a lot that has started low and has some activity. That is my preference. It is neither right nor wrong.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Peter's right. A card is worth exactly what two people are willing to buy and sell it for. It isn't "scummy" or "bad form" or anything else to offer a commodity for sale for a price of your choosing; it is simple capitalism at its most basic form. You don't like the price, don't buy the card, but don't badmouth the guy selling it for trying to make a buck. It seems to me that deep down inside the reason some folks are so peeved about the situation is that they want the card and can't have it at the price they want to pay. I mean, if it was a "overpriced" can of corn you'd just chuckle and buy another one at another store and wouldn't think twice about it, right?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Red

Without knowing what the card is it's hard for us to judge how crazy, or justified, the guy's price is. If it comes up for sale frequently then it's not worth bothering the guy and you just buy it someplace else. If it's rarely offered and hard to value then the original seller starting it at a high price made it hard for potential buyers to ascertain a value. People may have been unsure what the card was worth and some figured on being able to contact the seller after the listing ended with no bids to make a deal. The one person brave enough to place a bid stopped that from happening.

It's possible that had the seller started it out at $1 and then allowed a bunch of people unsure of its value determine the final price, it could have far exceeded the BIN he had it priced at. Say the item had a $1000 BIN and you just didn't feel confident enough to make that bid. It's later auctioned and all the participants in the auction now see that there are other people willing to pay 500, 600, 800, 900, 1100, etc. You now have the confidence to bid 1200 knowing that somebody else was willing to pay 1100. Another guy or two starts thinking the same way and the item winds up selling for a lot more, maybe more than it should sell for. But the winner's happy because he only had to pay one bid more than the underbidder.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- part of "trying to make a buck" is to treat people respectfully and have them as repeat customs. If you treat them shabbily you will be making less bucks than if you do them right.

I think that's Economics 101.

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Posted By: pas

Adam and I skipped Econ 101 and went straight to 102.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's why nobody gets what I am talking about...you were absent that day!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Redman, your points are well taken.

And I don't begrudge anyone making a buck--God knows I helped plenty of people make a buck this year. I just don't like to be treated badly when I offer fair market value for a card. As for the possibility of shill bidding in auctions, with all respect, other than Barry Sloate I would not give anyone a pass without looking at their books first (you know, the books that haven't been lost or destroyed yet).

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Posted By: pas

Yeah I still find it hard to believe two someones bid that much for that 62 card.

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Posted By: Julian

Is Julian a communist or just an idiot.

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Posted By: pas

He might be both, are they mutually exclusive?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark M., like I've said -- more time billing hours and less time taking anonymous shots at a lawyer who actually matters might allow you to give up the record for being the oldest law firm associate in North America. Just a thought.

edited last name (leon)

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Posted By: pas

(Edits Lichtman's post to add smiley)
<----------<-----------

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Posted By: leon

Whomever "Julian" is needs to email me before they will be allowed to post anymore.

..regards

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Posted By: MW

Julian,

You've got it all wrong. Sloate is the Communist, not Lichtman.

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Posted By: pas

Hey no fair picking on Sloate after he has gone to bed.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hahaha! It's 1040 pm -- that means we have at least 9 hours before the first Cheerios hit the bottom of the bowl in the Sloate household!!!!

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Posted By: Julian

Fair enough MW. Julian is the idiot.

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Posted By: Joann

And thus ended the brief and completely forgettable visit by Julian to Net54.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark M.-the guy who by the age of 40 who is still required to buy Pop Tarts for the senior partners on the mornings of trial -- that guy is considered to be the idiot. So that makes you the idiot.

edited last name (leon)

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Posted By: JK

Now this is entertainment

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Posted By: XanaduNow

Hey Billy, your V-neck sweater sucks and you're a loser.

Oops, sorry guys. I thought this was the thread where we took pot shots at arbitrary people for no other reason than the fact that we're perpetually nine years old.

Arthur

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Posted By: barrysloate

Geez- taking pot shots at an old man after he's gone to bed.

Okay, so I'm a Cheerio eating Communist- so sue me!

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Posted By: Mark Holt

How did this thread become yet another personal attack train wreck?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark -- it all started with Mark M. getting passed over for partner at his law firm yet again. Be thankful that he took his aggressions out on me on an internet forum instead of grabbing a rifle and going to the top of a tower.....

edited last name (leon)

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Posted By: Mark Holt

Looks like you are dishing out most of the attacks and insults Jeff....particularly appropriate during the Holiday season in your mind no doubt.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mark, I'm not one to get abused anonymously on the internet if I can help it. Sorry if that doesn't comport with your turn the other cheek mentality during the holidays.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

How do you know that Julian is Mark? The reason I ask is that Mark's a pretty nice guy and I would not expect this from him.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, if you'd like I can email you privately. Anyone who has been stalked by McCleary via the net would know that this can only be him.

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Posted By: leon

Someone is anonymously being an ass. I don't blame Jeff a bit for retaliating. It would be nice if we could all get along but obviously this "Julian" is testing the unlimited amount of IP's I can block. BTW, I am tracing them too....so we'll see how far I can get...First one was from the Chicago area...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- for the record, Mark sent me a series of private emails that were borderline deranged. I finally had to ask him to stop. I think the man has some issues.

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Posted By: Steve

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a healthy New Year to all.


Steve

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, don't be afraid to support me when I'm right, really, it won't hurt too much.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Don't get me wrong (yes I know you were referring to Steve Winpitcher) but if as someone has suggest it was "Julian" who started the Reinstate Peter C. thread then I think you're on to something. I recall how Mark would come on in defense of something you may have said regarding Peter's banal discourses.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, you're right: "Julian" started the "Reinstate Chaos" thread as well and in it claimed I was feeilng inferior about going to a lesser law school than Chao (I went to Duke -- I'm deeply ashamed). Curiously, this same comment was made by Mark M. many many months ago when he was defending Chao and attacking me. Plus, M. has been known to act irrationally via email and attack others solely because of their purported friendship with me (see Sloate, Barry). No one else has ever brought up this very ridiculous argument but M. and "Julian" and there were many months in between their posts. With all respect, Ray Charles could see through "Julian"'s ruse.

I started this thread to discuss a practice on ebay that annoys me. I didn't out the auction. I didn't out the seller or publicly chastise him. I simply discussed the issue in as vague of a manner as possible -- and I very well may be wrong on this issue as I've noted. None of that justifies an anonymous personal attack. No doubt I'm tough on certain people on this board but never in an anonymous manner and very rarely do I start it (Peter Chao excepted -- but for God's sake, I couldn't take anymore, I am human, really), though I do respond with gusto.

I suppose what I am trying to say to "Julian" is I don't mind the personal attacks: but a) be a man and don't do it anonymously; and b) be prepared for a response which you may not enjoy.

edited last names *(leon)