D304 Young

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Posted By: zach

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8730584619&fromMakeTrack=true>

Is it just me or is this one a little bit more than just a little short ?

Edited to add that wasn't this card sold as trimmed, which it obviously is, on ebay not that long ago ?

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Posted By: Anonymous

i have just lost what little shred of respect i ever had for PSA.

what a pantload of crap that they don't know enough to reject this thing.

...what's next a special flip noting it as being from the "Mr. Scissorhands collection" ?

Whoever is in charge of that grading room needs to recieve a pink slip tomorrow..if not a criminal indictment.

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Holy crap - I could understand an AUTHENTIC label on this but not an actual grade...

I guess they for got the PL (pantload) qualifier on this one...

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Posted By: Mark

"This is the only graded example of this card or any other in the set."

This is an odd representation.

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Posted By: Anonymous

it may well be the only example ever graded that was trimmed on all 4 sides.

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Posted By: quan

this is just sad.

someone should thread this over to CU.

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Posted By: zach

These people are ABSOLUTE boneheads. Just this week, T206 plank trimmed and on ebay but graded by PSA and now a D304 Young on ebay with the worst trim job ever now on ebay also graded by PSA. Priceless!

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Maybe the holder was cracked and another card was put in there. You would need to see the side of the holder to tell. I'm not much into grading and I definetly don't care about set registry. From what other people tell me, it's BIG business and getting bigger. Seems like the lower grades are fetching more and more... Buy the card... Not the holder..

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Posted By: zach

I'm almost postive this card was sold on ebay a few months ago with a semi-lagre grouping of more trimmed D304s, does anybody remember this ?

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Posted By: Joe Jones

The psa case on the edge looks cloudy. Maybe it is just me. Does the lettering on the back look green or black?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Lifson sent it in along with 27 other cards...says he will note in catalogue that card is "seriously overgraded"--also says it should have gotten a 2 at best (rest of card is O.K. Aside from the torn paper, green gills on Cobb, and almost no bottom border! Don't blame it on holder crackers--blame it on PSA!

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Posted By: JimB

I would guess that it might be a tampered holder. If it were presumed to not be trimmed, it would certainly grade higher than a 1.
JimB

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Posted By: Josh K.

I dont believe that the slab has been tampered with - if it had, the security tabs (or what ever they are called) would be clouded and they are still clear.

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Posted By: Anonymous

the slab looks fine. I really doubt this guy is playing WIWAG with D304's...too hard to find an original to begin with, let alone one to switch out.

I believe this is one of PSA's certified dealers that buys full page ads in the SMR and sets up at shows proudly displaying his affiliation with PSA.

It looks to me that there is is a piece of paper glued to the back of this beauty, but you are right, that is no reason to keep it from grading a PSA 6-7 or even 8.

...not these days

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Posted By: warshawlaw

♫shave and a haircut, two bits!♫

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Posted By: Anonymous

Despite the fabulous claims of this cards scarcity made in the auction description and quoted by Mark above....
...as of Nov. 28 2005 PSA has graded (and we have to use that word very loosely any more)a total of 132 cards from D304...The Cy Young has a population total of 7... with a psa7 a three psa5's.

what a pile of hot steamy.

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

least we forget a few other adjectives that can be added to the above statement:

smelly or stinky

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Posted By: zach

According to the seller-D304 is an issue where the cuts vary often and PSA allowes these to be graded just like anyother type of card that is miscut. This guy needs to go back to grade 1.

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Posted By: bigfish

this card deserves a grade of 0 and should not be in a holder for someone to resell. It is totally cut, trimmed, and buffed. I am never surprised by what cards are in psa holders. I only buy SGC cards if I can. 9 times out of 10 their 5's are psa 6's.

This example on ebay is really gross.

I guess quality control was on the can when this one came through

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Posted By: cmoking

a big black eye for PSA.

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Posted By: Rick

Mistakes happen ...this one is a pretty bad one.

The problem is how you deal with them. Most collectors realize that Grading companies will make human errors, I think no one will deny that.

Where i work mistakes happen daily...the clients know this and they accept it. But they always expect you to fix it quickly and make them whole and that makes all the difference.

The thing about PSA is how defensive they are when it comes to correcting their mistakes, they should be really proactive when erros happen. Buy back the card , put it into an auth holder and make good with the dealer. Quickly!

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

This card is not trimmed? This card was destroyed by some kid many years ago who had fun with scissors. There is a difference, whoever cut this card had no intention of beating the grading company but rather had child like motives (Zach might be able to relate to this being 15 years old). Just like there is a difference between "MK" and re-coloring, it is the intent and whether the card has increased in value as a result of the alteration. Who ever cut this card didn't increase the value but rather reduced the value. Therefore just like a card with a pin-hole it gets a "1".

Not all alteration is malicious. Remember the majority of people handling these cards were kids with no concept of their future value.

"Authentic" grades are only given to those cards that are deemed to be altered to improve the condition or value of the card. There maybe some grey area here but most of the time it is clear cut.

I wish I understood why some members speak so negatively about grading companies? "Bonehead" Zach, grown-ups don't talk that way. The "Boneheads" you speak of are working for a 100+ Million dollar company that commmands the higest selling price. Maybe not from you but from the people who have real money to spend on baseball cards. You might what to ask "Merkel" etc. if they think there multi-million dollar investments have been graded by "boneheads".

Every grader and or grading company makes mistakes. But the beauty is that if you don't agree with the grade you do not have to buy the card. It is an opinion. But I would much rather have a third party opinion when buying and selling than trying to buy a card from someone who has graded it themselves. Which was the previous world we lived in. Obviously, old-timers hate third-party grading, because back in the day everything was "mint".

I had to imput some postive into such a redundantly negative drone about grading from some board members.

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Posted By: Anonymous

so there is no minimum size requirement any more at PSA?

from the PSA web-site:
N-6 Minimum Size Requirement - When a card is significantly undersized according to factory specifications. You will be given a voucher good for another submission for the same type of service

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Charlie,

I think you're missing the main point here. The point is that the card is trimmed. Perhaps the intent wasn't to deceive the grading companies but the fact remains that the card doesn't come close to meeting the minimum size requirement and it has the fairly obvious visual indication of being trimmed.

Grading companies do make mistakes but this seems to be a fairly obvious error. Yes, PSA probably makes more mistakes than most because PSA probably handles more cards than most.

Who ever cut this card didn't increase the value but rather reduced the value. Therefore just like a card with a pin-hole it gets a "1".

Grading companies are beginning to provide AUTHENTIC labels for altered cards and they need to be consistent in how they treat the respective problems. If a card is trimmed it is trimmed, whether the intent was to deceive them or not.

I agree that Not all alteration is malicious and you're probably right that the majority of people handling these cards were kids with no concept of their future value.

I, for one (I don't speak for all) believe that if a company such as PSA is going to be in the business of providing a service to the collecting community then they need to be consistent in their grading and they need quality controls to ensure the process is as coherent as possible. Perhaps that's why so many people speak so negatively about grading companies.

You have it right that if you don't agree with the grade you do not have to buy the card. That probably goes with the common catch phrase of "buy the card and not the holder" and "buy what you like".

I see nothing positive about this PSA error and I couldn't spin this into something positive because it's such an obvious error.

You made some good points and yes, this is another thread about another grading error and an inaccurate item description. Perhaps the threads may seem redundant but sometimes the threads provoke thought which results in people interjecting a little bit of knowledge about different aspects of the card such as size, dimension or even the population report for the card.

All in all, it's just another thread about another bonehead error on PSAs part.

By the way, MANONTHEROCK does have some pretty decent material for auction.

Best,

Fred

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Dave,

Actually N6 is reserved for cards that have factory cuts but are too small to holder and result in a refund of grading fees. This card should be in an Authentic holder and should never have been assigned a numerical grade. The card is clearly cut or trimmed, though not done to be deceptive, but as Charlie pointed out, most likely by a kid many decades ago.

I hate to see such a gross oversite by PSA or any other grading company. It does happen. I would hope that PSA will do the proper thing and retire the card. It would be nice for the seller to contact PSA. The cost to resolve this mistake is a drop in the bucket.

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Posted By: zach

manontherock-What just same out of your mouth was pure ignorance. My age has no relation to this matter and should not be brought up. I know what a trimmed card is and this obviously is one, I am not stupid. The one who seems to be coming off as the 15 year old here is you. You can't let go of a stupid grudge can you ? You're like a little kid. I am no longer going to fight you, it is not worth it. The fact of the matter is the card is trimmed, so what if I am negative towards grading. Yes I called them boneheads because look at how they graded the card, doesn't take an idiot to see it, or maybe it does ? Leon, for all its worth I lost my grudge against this troll and he continued to bring it up in a new thread. Feel free to email me and we can talk about it.

BTW MANONTHEROCK-I think its all too obvious here who the real kid is, the person who let a grudge go and was willing to forget or the man who keeps going at a 16 year old.

One more thing. I guess i've been buying cards with three dollars bills lately Charles because they aren't real. But I haven't been paying with 3 dollar bills, I have been paying with paypal. Is paypal fake ? Well if paypal is fake how are you making money off your auctions ? You do take paypal or so it says you do. Oh I get it, because i'm young you don't think I work for my money, daddy just gives it to me right ? Wrong again Charles, wrong again. I recently closed a few deals that will allow me to have spending money for a good amount of time with out my dads help. I don't know what rock you crawled out from but could you please do us all a favor and go back ?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Zach,

Acutally, Leon brought your age up not me. Second, there you go name calling again, a "troll". I know you get away with alot on this board because you are a child but I think you are overly negative and quite pessimistic.

The point is, if you think the card is "trimmed" then don't buy it. Why must you police ebay? This hobby/business is caveat emptor. I will agree the seller is disreputable and has a history of enhancing his scans and flat out misinformation but once again if you do not like was he is auctioning don't bid on it, move on.

There are plenty of overgrades and undergrades out there and it would be a waste of time to fight PSA on all of them. Buy the undergraded cards for upgrade potential and simply avoid the overgraded or shouldn't be graded ones.

I disagree that anyone card is a "black eye" for PSA. Until collectors with millions of dollars worth of dissposable income decide to flee PSA, there holder is the best insurance policy your card can have.

Charlie

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Posted By: zach

Edited to add I don't care anymore to fight this. I have sent Leon an email. You are the one that screwed up here buddy, a grudge was dropped and you decided to bring it back up. Its funny how things work out, the kid acting like the adult and the adult acting like the kid. priceless

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Posted By: Josh K.

Ok, I came to Charlie's defense last time, so turnaround is fair play. I think making this personal toward Zach was uncalled for. Several, actually much more than several, board members believe that the grade assigned by PSA is "boneheaded."

As for Zach, he knows more about baseball cards than probably 85% of the "grown ups" who frequent this Board. He may be half my age, but I wouldnt hesitate to get his advise if I had a question about a card. And the last thing that I think any regular on this Board would say is that Zach acts like a child. Finally, there was a reference to "people who have real money to spend on cards" - dont kid yourself - he may not have as much to spend right now as some of us who are in the workforce, but wait a few years - if he is still in the hobby, I bet that changes.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ahhh, ya gotta love the elitists. If you can't drop at least four figures on a card, you don't matter.

What is wrong with holding grading companies accountable for their VERY obvious mistakes? What kind of insurance policy is their piece of plastic if the label on the slab doesn't match the card in the slab?

Charlie, I hope you have a small foot because you sure like sticking in your mouth a lot.

Jay



I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Wow, there you go again trying to twist someones words around.

The point is: Grading is here to stay. Mistakes will happen frequently. And those who have the most cards graded with the highest dollar value will do what they have to do to protect their invesment.

While I understand that Zach and others have alot of knowledge about vintage cards, it is another thing to think that they can grade cards more accurately from a scan then the graders in the grading room.

Most graders will not even issue a final grade until cracking a card out of a holder in order to see all the angles and nuances. So I think it is ridiculous to think someone could grade cards based on a scan alone.

I am all for holding grading companies to account but it seems pretty one-sided here. I think that there are some people that believe the more mistakes they find that PSA makes the more they can make PSA and grading go away. I will choose to focus on the positives of grading and the countless times Mike Baker at GAI has saved me from huge losses.

While the big boys will protect there investment in Graded cards the little guy has the most to gain from grading. Everytime a small time collector reveals a 33 Goudey from the attic instead of asking the person who is trying to buy the card from them what it is worth they can sent it to PSA. PSA will then issue them a grade with the grade they now can cross reference with the price guide. This gives them the right amount of information to sell the card a true market price instead of a dealer price.

It is because of this that I wonder if some old-timers have a vested interest against grading because it has taken away the information arbitrage that used to exist. For example, the dealer or person who knows the most makes the most money or more favorable trade. In todays third-party grading world, if you take that Goudey Ruth from the attic and get it graded and it comes back an "8" you are guaranteed to get more than five hundred bucks. Its an insurance policy against getting taken advantage of by someone who knows more than you. It has leveled the playing field and allowed more people to get involved. All of these things are good things. I wish there was more talk about this. I will be the first to complain about a grade or two everytime I submit cards but there is so much anger and hostility towards grading that it makes you wonder if the anger is focused in the wrong direction.

I gave you Jay and you Zach an opportunity to apologize and both of you declined. As a result, you can understand how there are still hard feelings.

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Posted By: zach

.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I always thought a trimmed card was grade Poor ... Some members of this board do have an anti-PSA view, at least prefering SGC. If it's Charlie's opinion that people here sometimes go overboard bashing PSA, I can see that ... Zach's very knowledgeable about early cards. I don't mean for a 16 year old, I mean for any age. People should get on his good side while he's young.

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Posted By: zach

Thanks david and Josh. I was ready to drop the incident over the Cobb posted last week between Charlie and I. I had not mentioned anything to him nor contacted him through anyway. In my mind it was dropped and would be just swept under the rug. For no reason I click a thread today and what do I find, Charlie has obviously not gotten rid of his grudge and started to go at me again, this time attacking and mocking my age. The reason for this ? There wasn't one. I am going to say no more because an email has been sent to Leon and he can take care of this better than anyone.

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Posted By: identify7

I agree Charlie, that a grading service is conceptually a favorable option for collectors. However, in its current implementation I find third party grading results in the employment of evaluation criteria with weighting factors which differ from those which I use in the evaluation of cards.

Therefore, the result is cards graded based on priorities which do not exist for me. I would much prefer an authentication only service, with each collector judging the value of a card based on, in part, personal preferences.

Independent of the above, I routinely crack out each graded card I obtain because the holders impair my ability to display my cards in accordance with my view of asthetics, and because they are way too bulky. Additionally, I do not want to be protected from my cards. I do not fear them.

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Posted By: John

Charlie;

I’m not sure I understand your reasoning on this. So if a card was trimmed before the hobby became profitable it scores a 1, if after its trimmed?

Or are you saying that if the trim job is sloppy and looks like it was done on a roller coaster by a kid using safety scissors, that there was no way he was trying to fool anyone so he gets a 1?

But for all those neat "anal" kids who took the time to cut in straight lines it could be a toss up, unless they can appear in “grading court”.

This is great news if it’s true!

My Dad trimmed a lot of his 50’s cards. He’s also alive and can testify in court that he did this with no malicious intent. He also use to write the team names on the cards when players were traded, which could now take off the MK, I’m sure he would testify that he did this with “Informative Intent”. As for the Mickey Mantle cards with the mustache drawn on…well ok there may have been some malicious intent there, lets just hope the defense doesn’t bring those up. Of course we could always spin that he was making a social commentary on how much better the “Mick” would have looked with a nice handle bar mustache, and at the end of the day who would have enjoyed the novelty t-shirt “Mustache Rides Only a Nickel!” more than Mickey & Whitey?

Zach has the right to an opinion as much as any other guy here whom looks/collects these things, regardless of income. As for Zach not being a grown up, well am I the only one here who finds humor in the fact that an adult who spends tons of money & time on pieces of paper that were aimed at children (like myself) is calling anyone immature?

I’m also at a loss regarding the term “Bonehead” I thought the preferred term on the board was “Dunderhead”????

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Posted By: andy becker

i do not like to participate in these cat fights.....but....c'mon....
zach's age is a non issue. if nobody brought it up, i would never have guessed his age from his posts.
to bring his age up, in a derogatory manor, is rude. plain and simple.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

John,

I clearly stated that an "MK" is for writing but re-coloring deserves no grade or "authentic" because the intent was different.

If you accidentaly chop off the corner of a card with scissors the grade will be a "1". If you trim and refile the same corner and it is detected the grade will be authentic.

It is an opinion.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

With regard to Zach, he ambushed me on another thread about an extremely petty issue. I received many emails from Leon empathizing with my pain with respect to the situation.

I posted a picture of a card and I was harranged over and over again. I asked for an apology and did not get one.

Frankly, I think you should treat people online in a message board format the way you would treat them in person.

It is really easy to hide behind a computer and assume an identity and not be held accountable for your actions.

If everybody shows each other respect from the begining we would not be in this situation.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Cool! It turns out that in Mercer Island, PSA stands for "Psychic Sportscard Authentication", because they can determine intent before slabbing a card. I am a huge advocate of third party grading. This card grade blows! What's worse, is that the Joe Orlando regime continues to believe that denial, obfuscation and deflection are better than personal accountability. People make mistakes. I have no issue with that. I'd just like to see Orlando admit one.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Bryan

Hey Leon,

How about making a monthly cat fight thread? Seriously, this is getting old.

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Posted By: andy becker

charlie, you were not "ambushed". you broke board policy and zach said exactly what i would have said.....but he said it first...
why leon let your self promoting thread continue is beyond me.
i am not questioning our fearless leader.....but your cobb thread sounded like a replay of the "mr. x" crap that hit the board a few months back.

regardless of the your take on an "ambush", you owe zach an apology.

you speak of hiding behind a computer...
would you make fun of zach's age (or budget) to his face charlie?
maybe you would.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I truly believe that the point of this thread has been lost. This thread was not an "anti grading" thread per se. What I mean is, no one was arguing that grading in general is a bad thing (though I know some people do hold that opinion, I dont think that was the point of this thread). It was a specific comment about a particularly egregious error on a high dollar card - as opposed to "oh, this card shouldnt be graded a 4, its clearly no better than a 3.5". The thread is negative toward PSA not only because they made this error, but b/c they tend to make more of this type of collossal mistake than the other companies (well, except for pro) and when they do, they refuse to own the mistake and correct it. In contrast, I know of several instances (from other posts) in which SGC has been informed of an error by a grader and they, without hesitation, either regraded the card (and compensated the owner for any lost value) or bought the card back and took it out of the hobby. Ive never heard of PSA doing any such thing unless first ordered by a Court.

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Posted By: WP

This card is in the class of the N300 with the bottom cut off. If PSA missed this amazingly pathetic trim job, how can you possibly think that they don't miss deceptive trim jobs on a regular basis? Charlie you are dead wrong if you think a grader looked at this card and said its trimmed but its a 1 and obvious so I will grade it. The grader who put a grade on this is incompetant.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

Like many others, I'm building a set of Hall of Fame players, utilizing as many different card types as possible. My goal is to have the postwar cards in great condition, and the prewar cards in presentable condition without any alterations, major damage, or heavy creasing.

Collecting this way is a lot of fun, but it also makes it difficult when collecting the more obscure issues. It's difficult to get to know all the different possible card types, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do a ton of research into a set just so I can feel comfortable buying a single card.

Because of this, I depend on reliable sellers and grading companies to help me.

If I didn't have some level of familiarity with D304s, I might have looked at this auction and thought that this was a very presentable PSA-1, with no damage on the face of the card. I might have been motivated to pay a premium, hoping I could crack it and cross it into a different holder. Undoubtedly, someone will win this card, thinking the same thing. I may buy it, just to keep it out of an unsuspecting collector's hands.

It should be in an "authentic" holder, if it's in a holder at all. And I'm 36 years old.

-Al

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Posted By: tbob

I have never thought that trimmed cards ended up in "1" or "10" holders, they were either returned with a note indicating trimming or they ended up, in the case of PSA, in "5" or "6" holders. (Sarcasm intended).
I don't believe trimmed cards should be in "Poor" holders. I have had some really nice cards rejected for trimming, including some 1909 Obaks which were handcut back in 1909 (probably) and some Sporting Life cards, which we all know are all over the place size-wise.
Whether or not cards were trimmed in the year they were produced or 80 years down the road, a trimmed card is a trimmed card and should be given an "authentic" grade, not a "1" or "10." The reason for the trimming, whether to fit a pocket holder in a page or a holder or just to make it look sharper, is irrelevant.

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Posted By: identify7

It does not matter what you do. If you drive a car, the odds are that eventually you will be involved in an accident. If you walk down the stairs, eventually you will slip. The same with grading.

Some people are careless or otherwise accident prone. Hopefully these persons are weeded out by grading companies or trained adequately to minimize errors.

But errors will occur. The question is always "what will a grading company do when confronted by one of their errors which is in the marketplace"? A desireable response would be that they will pay a fair price for the card, based on the impact of their error.

When a company accepts this level of responsibility, they will incorporate quality assurance safeguards in their grading process in order to minimize their exposure on higher end items.

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Posted By: JimB

Can't we all just get along?
JimB

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Posted By: Cat

You have to understand that California is very progressive and extremely cultutally diverse which of course is good. Orange County, where PSA is located, is even more attuned to treating people with dignity. Employers, such as PSA, certainly live to a high standard of EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL. I think we can feel comfort in the fact that the PSA grader who slabbed that card came to work via the seeing eye dog. It just makes me feel very warm and fuzzy.

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Posted By: Anonymous

maybe Gil is right...
PSA is just accident prone?
..like if you let a blinfolded 6 year old drive your car?